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fiddleflow - Posted - 12/15/2010: 14:42:46
When I listen to any music , the first thing my mind concentrate is on the rhythm, not the lyrics and other sounds. Is music really mostly rhythm?, although I don't know what rhythm is. Any opinion?.
mudbug - Posted - 12/15/2010: 15:23:03
Three elements in music, are rhythm, melody and harmony. Different genres place emphasis on one over the others. I'm a drummer and wouldn't deny the attraction for rhythm, but as a singer and instrumentalist, I have just as big an attraction for melody and harmony. I need a balance. I find myself getting bored very quickly if the music is mostly about the rhythm. Please don't take this the wrong way, because it's not meant as an insult, but I think this is why I don't like most OT. I say most, because I do like some, and it's probably the more melodic OT that I like. After the fourth or eighth time around on a very simple melodic structure, I'm about ready to tear my hair out. Maybe it's cause I was raised on AM radio with short sweet three minute songs, or love classic jazz from the 50's/60's where the song might be eight minutes, but it's inventive.
I didn't mean to rant. It sounds like you're a rhythmic OT fan. I'm glad you love it. You'll have plenty of company here.
Skunkhound - Posted - 12/15/2010: 15:35:55
IMO, rythm is at least 90%. Intonation can be off a little, you can even hit a wrong note now and then, but if the rythm is strong, you probably wont even notice.
M-D - Posted - 12/15/2010: 15:49:43
Music is 100% rhythmic notes. 
fiddlepogo - Posted - 12/15/2010: 16:12:59
quote:
Originally posted by fiddleflow
When I listen to any music , the first thing my mind concentrate is on the rhythm, not the lyrics and other sounds. Is music really mostly rhythm?, although I don't know what rhythm is. Any opinion?.
Well, DANCE music is mostly rhythm... or maybe it's better to say the rhythm is CENTRAL... everything is built around it.
And Old Time fiddling, along with many other folk fiddling genres, IS dance music.
Likewise, much rock, disco, blues, polka, even "rap" are different (can you say VERY different?) kinds of dance music.
But they all have a strong definite rhythm.... although those are very DIFFERENT definite rhythms.
There are genres that aren't dance music that often deliberately understate the rhythm, even hide it,
partly because it can distract from the words.
Rhythm is a repeating pattern of pulses. This repeating pattern allows multiple musicians to play more easily together, and for dancers to dance in synch with each other and with the music.
One example is Highland bagpipe music. Much of it is music to march to, and marching is a rhythmic activity much like dancing, and the pulse of the marching music helps soldiers march together more efficiently. But Highland pipe music has a solo form called "pibroch" that is not very rhythmic at all... very flowing.
I personally don't enjoy it at all, although I like highland pipes... I miss the rhythm!
fiddleflow - Posted - 12/15/2010: 16:18:19
So, all music is rhythmic, it is just that what rhythmic style you like?.
Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 12/15/2010: 16:26:39
In my world, melody is king. Of course, it wouldn't be a melody without rhythm to give it temporal shape. But this doesn't mean the rhythm must be repetitive or simple.
oldtimestrings - Posted - 12/15/2010: 17:35:56
Much to better to play with poor tone and intonation but solid rhythm, than the other way around. Don't know if that adds up to 90%. ;-)
Fidleir - Posted - 12/15/2010: 17:37:30
quote:
Originally posted by fiddleflow
When I listen to any music , the first thing my mind concentrate is on the rhythm, not the lyrics and other sounds. Is music really mostly rhythm?, although I don't know what rhythm is. Any opinion?.
Perhaps it depends on the kind of music. My Irish fiddle instructor impressed upon me from the very beginning that Irish music is melody-based. Which is not to say that our tunes lack rhythm by any means. It would be pretty difficult to listen to Tommy Peoples playing jigs and reels without toe tapping. But, I do believe the melody is foremost in Irish traditional music. In fact, too much backing really destroys the lilt and lift in Irish tunes.
Unless of course I have no clue as to what you mean by "rhythm." Which is possible.
Learner - Posted - 12/15/2010: 18:29:00
quote:
Originally posted by fiddleflow
So, all music is rhythmic, it is just that what rhythmic style you like?.
But not all rhythm is music.....
fiddleflow - Posted - 12/15/2010: 19:09:48
Does melody mean the same thing as voice, or singing?.
fiddlenbanjo - Posted - 12/15/2010: 19:36:11
quote:
Originally posted by fiddleflow
Does melody mean the same thing as voice, or singing?.
Not when the singing is bad.
I prefer the term 'groove' to rhythm. Groove implies a seductive rhythm, something that makes you want to move, just like good fiddling. I don't know about 90%, but establishing, finding and/or playing 'in the groove' has to be more important than anything else. It comes first, before you ever play the first note.
If people played their scales in a groove their would be a lot less complaints about playing scales.
Wrong notes in the groove will sound way better than right notes out of the groove.
bj - Posted - 12/15/2010: 20:38:18
quote:
Does melody mean the same thing as voice, or singing?.
Yes.
And No.
People can sing the Melody.
People can sing various Harmonies.
fiddleflow - Posted - 12/15/2010: 20:53:59
A little confusion here. Can individual person sing only a single note, or can he/she sing chord based ( more than one note at a time) songs?.
Bart - Posted - 12/15/2010: 21:12:25
quote:
Originally posted by mudbug
Three elements in music, are rhythm, melody and harmony. Different genres place emphasis on one over the others. I'm a drummer and wouldn't deny the attraction for rhythm, but as a singer and instrumentalist, I have just as big an attraction for melody and harmony. I need a balance. I find myself getting bored very quickly if the music is mostly about the rhythm. Please don't take this the wrong way, because it's not meant as an insult, but I think this is why I don't like most OT. I say most, because I do like some, and it's probably the more melodic OT that I like. After the fourth or eighth time around on a very simple melodic structure, I'm about ready to tear my hair out. Maybe it's cause I was raised on AM radio with short sweet three minute songs, or love classic jazz from the 50's/60's where the song might be eight minutes, but it's inventive.
I didn't mean to rant. It sounds like you're a rhythmic OT fan. I'm glad you love it. You'll have plenty of company here.
"Like" Button. Thank you for expressing what I think, but saying it much more nicely and eloquently than I could have.
mudbug - Posted - 12/16/2010: 02:26:54
Thankyou, Bart, but I think we'd be in the minority here. Some have said here and in previous posts that they don't mind poor tone and intonation if the rhythm is solid. I just don't comprehend that.
TomGlos - Posted - 12/16/2010: 04:41:57
It also depends how far you take the "rhythm" concept. Do you include "phrasing," meaning the tiny time variations that a good player will make from the strict basis that a simple computer version might play?
("Rhythm" is also important in slow airs.)
To my mind the key is that however superb your intonation, tone, speed, "playing the right notes" may be, if the rhythm is bad or lacking, none of those other things can compensate, but the reverse is not true.
Learner - Posted - 12/16/2010: 05:53:47
quote:
Originally posted by fiddleflow
A little confusion here. Can individual person sing only a single note, or can he/she sing chord based ( more than one note at a time) songs?.
I've heard that there are some individuals that claim to be able to sing chords. But for the vast majority of people this is not usually possible.
Endif - Posted - 12/16/2010: 06:39:31
quote:
Originally posted by Learner
quote:
Originally posted by fiddleflow
A little confusion here. Can individual person sing only a single note, or can he/she sing chord based ( more than one note at a time) songs?.
I've heard that there are some individuals that claim to be able to sing chords. But for the vast majority of people this is not usually possible.
They're usually called throat singers. However, it's harmonics and overtones, not what you would normally think of as chords.
youtube.com/watch?v=VTCJ5hedcVA For what we consider chords, some singers, such as Bruce Molsky, will sing one note of the chord while playing the other two on his fiddle. He describes this process at
youtube.com/watch?v=LJxklaUHE6s
Edited by - Endif on 12/16/2010 06:45:12
oldtimestrings - Posted - 12/16/2010: 06:49:07
Rhythm, in the largest sense, means how music exists in time. Music by definition is a temporal art form. It exists in time, with time elapsing, or it doesn't exist at all. Therefore, in the most fundamental sense, music IS rhythm.
You can have music without melody, without harmony, without singing. But you cannot have music without rhythm.
A couple of folks in this thread have said that melody is the most important thing. I see where you're coming from, but remember that melody does not exist without rhythm. Melody is a succession of pitches, one after another, which means they occur over time. This, of course, means rhythm.
Furthermore, rhythm gives meaning, character, and definition to the pitches that make up a melody. To illustrate, sing a major scale from the top down (do-ti-la-sol-fa-mi-re-do). Now sing the opening phrase of "Joy to the World." Same notes, in the same order. But the distinctive rhythm of the "Joy to the World" turns an abstract collection of notes (the scale) into a melody.
oldtimestrings - Posted - 12/16/2010: 06:55:49
quote:
Originally posted by TomGlos
It also depends how far you take the "rhythm" concept. Do you include "phrasing," meaning the tiny time variations that a good player will make from the strict basis that a simple computer version might play?
("Rhythm" is also important in slow airs.)
To my mind the key is that however superb your intonation, tone, speed, "playing the right notes" may be, if the rhythm is bad or lacking, none of those other things can compensate, but the reverse is not true.
Yes, yes, yes. Rhythm is a huge part of phrasing, though it also has to do with articulation, dynamics, and other parameters. Rhythm is just as important in music that doesn't have a strong groove. When I perform, I usually sing some ballads and work songs a cappella (solo singing, I'm talking about). The music is unmetered, and there is no groove at all. But phrasing is hugely important, of course, and you better believe that I'm thinking a lot about rhythm. The same holds true for instrumental music of various sorts.
bj - Posted - 12/16/2010: 07:38:53
quote:
A little confusion here. Can individual person sing only a single note, or can he/she sing chord based ( more than one note at a time) songs?.
Most people can only sing either the melody or the harmony. But there are very rare people who can sing two notes at once, a melody and harmony note, aka a double stop. According to janepaints, Steve Weber formerly of the Holy Modal Rounders is one of those people. Baby Gramps is another. I believe you can find Baby Gramps on youtube, though I don't know whether he's doing the voice trick on any of his videos.
Edited by - bj on 12/16/2010 07:39:32
RobBob - Posted - 12/16/2010: 12:37:03
Timing is everthing.
banjopaolo - Posted - 12/16/2010: 13:33:24
maybe not 90% but maybe....89,9%
fiddleflow - Posted - 12/16/2010: 14:09:45
And is there an " official" definition of rhythm?.
carlb - Posted - 12/16/2010: 14:49:05
Elson's Pocket Music Dictionary
rhythm - The division of musical ideas or sentences into reguar metrical portions; musical accent and cadence as applied to melody. Rhythm represents the regular pulsation of the music.
melody - 1. A succession of sounds so arranged as to produce ap leasing effect upon the ear; distinguished from "harmony" where two or more tones are sounded simultaneously, 2. By "the melody" the leading part in an a harmonized compositions is meant.
harmony - The agreement or consonance of two or more united sounds. The art of combining sounds into chords and treating those chords according to certain rules.
Hope there are too many typos.
OTJunky - Posted - 12/16/2010: 15:16:13
quote:
Originally posted by oldtimestrings
You can have music without melody, without harmony, without singing. But you cannot have music without rhythm.
Ever listen to an Irish Air?
youtube.com/watch?v=SUT7aGT1JxM--OTJ
oldtimestrings - Posted - 12/16/2010: 18:33:30
quote:
Originally posted by carlb
Elson's Pocket Music Dictionary
rhythm - The division of musical ideas or sentences into regular metrical portions; musical accent and cadence as applied to melody. Rhythm represents the regular pulsation of the music.
Hogwash. I'm not familiar with Elson's Pocket Dictionary, but I have to say this is simply wrong. I won't bore everyone with a list of my credentials pertaining to music theory, but suffice it to say that I do have a certain degree of expertise in these matters. Rhythm does not have to be metrical (i.e., organized according to regular patterns of beats), and rhythm does not always consist of regular pulsation. That is one very common way of organizing rhythm, of course, but you don't have to have pulsation, beat, or meter to have rhythm. As I wrote earlier, rhythm means
anything having to do with music's temporality, with music's existing in time--
without which, it doesn't exist at all. Try this, from the Oxford Dictionary of Music, a much more authoritative source than Elson:
Rhythm
(in the full sense of the word) covers everything pertaining to the time aspect of mus. as distinct from the aspect of pitch, . . . There may be ‘free’ or ‘strict’ rhythm.quote:
Originally posted by carlb
Hope there are too many typos.
Now that, I like!
Skunkhound - Posted - 12/16/2010: 19:16:21
Is there something in the air lately? It seems like every time I check in here, some body's challenging another term , or definition. I think Elson's hit it right on the head, and 99% of any body who knows anything about music would agree. Is there a "free" rythm, that's not confined to a predictable pattern of beats? Apparently so, according to Oxford, but who cares? that's not what we're talking about.
ChickenMan - Posted - 12/16/2010: 19:21:38
Free rhythm is what those slow airs have.
The example of Joy to the World is a great example of why rhythm is important.
It is part of what separates a string of notes from an actual tune.
oldtimestrings - Posted - 12/16/2010: 19:36:54
quote:
Originally posted by Skunkhound
Is there something in the air lately? It seems like every time I check in here, some body's challenging another term , or definition. I think Elson's hit it right on the head, and 99% of any body who knows anything about music would agree. Is there a "free" rythm, that's not confined to a predictable pattern of beats? Apparently so, according to Oxford, but who cares? that's not what we're talking about.
I don't think I'm challenging a definition, but trying to clarify or establish one. If rhythm is "confined to a predictable pattern of beats," then you would have to say that this brief example from Roscoe Holcomb has no rhythm. Or perhaps it's not music?
Fidleir - Posted - 12/16/2010: 19:39:55
quote:
Originally posted by ChickenMan
Free rhythm is what those slow airs have.
The example of Joy to the World is a great example of why rhythm is important.
It is part of what separates a string of notes from an actual tune.
Anyone interested in Irish slow airs would do well to listen to Tomas Ó' Canainn's Slow Airs of Ireland and to read and understand his introduction to this exquisite music.
Skunkhound - Posted - 12/16/2010: 19:48:35
I definately heard a rythmic pattern in moonshiner. I'll bet if you were to double the speed and loop it, it would become real obvious too. Very cool song BTW.
oldtimestrings - Posted - 12/16/2010: 20:10:15
quote:
Originally posted by Skunkhound
I definately heard a rythmic pattern in moonshiner. I'll bet if you were to double the speed and loop it, it would become real obvious too. Very cool song BTW.
I hear a rhythm, too. I guess you could call it a pattern, but it's not meter, i.e., it's not a regular pattern of strong and weak beats. There's no groove, and you can't tap your foot to it, but there's definitely rhythm. In this particular case, I think the rhythm flows primarily from the words themselves, which is not unusual in vocal music (ever listen to Gregorian chant?). It's a matter of phrasing, which Tom Glos astutely pointed out is intertwined with rhythm. I guess what I'm saying is the fact that you hear something rhythmic in this music, which is unmetered, only proves my point that all music has rhythm, because all music exists in time (whether that time is divided up into beats or not).
I think I've said enough, and don't want to become the loop that Skunkhound referred to
, so I'll just let this discussion develop as an observer. Thanks.
TomGlos - Posted - 12/17/2010: 02:46:22
The dictionary definition is much the same as music played by a computer, it's "right" but only up to a point.
Ask your good old fashioned sci-fi android and it'll say the definition is right, the computer is playing the music right, and that, [insert name of excellent player of your choice] is playing it wrong!
Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 12/17/2010: 17:11:13
Grooves and rhythmic patterns are marvelous and wonderful, but they're also a straitjacket. Listen to or play crooked tunes to break those bonds. Listen to Stravinsky, Bartok, Berlioz, Liszt and Beethoven. Steal some time with a rubato. Accelerate into a frenzy. Leave them hanging at the edge of a precipice with a deceleration. Change the time signature every three bars. Rhythm may be a key component in music, but that doesn't mean the rhythm needs to be regular.
DougD - Posted - 12/17/2010: 17:45:57
fiddleflow - No, it isn't.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 12/17/2010: 20:01:08
quote:
Originally posted by OTJunky
quote:
Originally posted by oldtimestrings
You can have music without melody, without harmony, without singing. But you cannot have music without rhythm.
Ever listen to an Irish Air?
youtube.com/watch?v=SUT7aGT1JxM
--OTJ
Or a pibroch on Highland pipes. Or ancient Irish Gaelic church music.
I think to myself, I should LOVE this stuff, because it's SO Gaelic...
but the arrhythmic quality either puts me so sleep, or drives me up a tree.
Conclusion: I like Gaelic (Scots or Irish) DANCE music, or Gaelic (Scots or Irish) songs with a normal rhythmic quality.
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 12/19/2010: 17:28:57
I never used to like sacred harp singing much because even though the harmonies were beautiful, and the melody beautiful, the rhythm of the things was always just straight up and montonous and too driving... just bang bang bang bang... drove me crazy. Then I heard, recently, people on youtube, doing sacred harp with instruments and singing, and letting up on that bang bang rhythm and making it more interesting... now I like the sounds they are getting with a very nontraditional sacred harp, but the difference is in the rhythm.
oldtimer - Posted - 12/20/2010: 13:36:40
Just as everyone thinks they have a normal sex drive, whatever it is, most people think that they have a good sense of rhythm.
But, actually, a really a good sense of rhythm is quite rare and when you run across someone that has it, the person is usually a very prominent musician.
It takes long and patient study of advanced rhythm players combined with many years of focused practice to play with really good rhythm...to say nothing of innate talent, which seems to have become a politically incorrect subject nowadays.
stay tooned....
Glenn Godsey
mudbug - Posted - 12/20/2010: 14:17:17
It is, if you put on the album "In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida" by Iron Butterfly.
leroyleroux - Posted - 12/21/2010: 09:34:02
Yes, and the other 50% is something completely different.
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 12/22/2010: 05:58:28
I think all bablies and children have excellent rhythm. If you're around little ones, watch them react to music... ANY music... you can visibly see the rhythm.
Something happens, somewhere along the way, that knocks that outta people... and then we all have to work hard to get it back.
My grandson, 11 months old now, sways side to side if he hears 3/4 time (Oh Where Oh Where has my little dog gone?, etc.) If he hears 4/4 or 2/4, he bobs up and down on his knees and looks like a clogger, the way they bob up and down.
Whatever he hears, he seems compelled to move along somehow with the rhythms of the music.
Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 12/22/2010 06:00:40
Tommys dad - Posted - 01/01/2011: 08:37:20
I spoke to an expert "my wife" who spent a lot of her daddies money to understand what Music "is". Rhythm is the timing of the pitches and is a component of the melody. She had a much longer explanation involving Geeks and lots of math (which after 30 years I still have nightmares about forgetting to attend a math course for a whole semester, I never really forgot to go but it probably didn't make much difference as for the final outcome). As for this discussion if the tune is for dance i.e. Folk, O.T. the music will have a very defined rhythm. As for me I find tunes with defined rhythm easier to play but I also love the long melodic celtic laments which is where I need to work on my vibrato. In short play what makes you happy.
