Oscar - Posted - 12/03/2010:  07:42:50

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Help me with this, I'd like to go beyond a simple melody but I seems to be thick as it gets about music theory.

I want to learn about double stops, chords etc, i try to use them by ear when playing melody, but are there any simple exercise charts that would guide me?
For example I read here that a good way to learn double stops is to do a chord apergios. Well... sounds good to me but at the same time it doesn't tell me anything as i don't know how to play chords on violin.

So please help me with some easy to understand charts or guidance?

Peghead - Posted - 12/03/2010:  09:45:13

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Give it a go without the charts. A good way to start is by just playing the major scales. Start with common keys. G is a good one, it has 2 octaves in first position. As you play it, count using the root note (G) as 1. The major arpeggios are constructed using only the 1's, 3's and 5's of the major scale. The (major) chords are constructed with the same notes just played together in different combinations. It's pretty easy to understand, the devil's in the doing. Do your own charts later.

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Edited by - Peghead on 12/03/2010 09:48:24

martynspeck - Posted - 12/03/2010:  11:03:03

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I'm starting down the same road. Here's the resource I found.

donrickert.typepad.com/downloa...uning.pdf

FiddleJammer - Posted - 12/03/2010:  15:04:14

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The second page of this outline tunes.fiddlejammer.com/worksho...ndout.pdf is a schematic of strings and notes 'as if' a fiddle had frets. It's possible to visualize the whole steps and half steps, I think. I've mapped out the scale for the key of G in standard tuning and the key of D tuned to 'high bass'. The blank graphic is good for working out puzzles like this from time to time. Makes the finger patterns more clear and can be used to figure out where the first, third, and fifth notes in the scale are noted.

I've also found that the how-to-play-the-mandolin web pages have schematics for 2 finger chords, applicable to fiddles in standard tuning. Like so... mandolincafe.com/two.html

Oscar - Posted - 12/03/2010:  19:52:19

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Thanks for all those, i will actually use them all and draw my own charts then. I spent like two hours on goodle today and some people really mean theory to be a Theory.
So as I understand this, basically I will take a chord like major G (GBD) and then play only those notes as appergio.

Now I read about double stops that are major sixth so looking at the note chart that is if I play in the g major scale or whatever I count six from the note I play up ? (on the scale), example: when I play D in G major I count six from this note up and come with B, is that correct?

Also to make things difficult I found lot of references like "double stops in 2nd position" or double stops in 3th position - what is this exactly ?

And what is inverse third or sixth, it is when counting from the tone I play down three?

I really start to feel the need to better understand this. I am that type of player that can learn a song from notes or even by ear but if I have to improvise in real time I stare like deer into headlights. I go nowhere and play only the wrong notes.... but fiddle is good friend, it made me to learn notation that I avoided during many years on guitar .

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Edited by - Oscar on 12/03/2010 19:54:06

ghopper - Posted - 12/03/2010:  21:36:58

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Here's a link to mp3 drones you can download to practice scales and aprs with.

2reed.net/awesome.html#MP3_Drones

Seems to be the just right amount of overtones so you can practice major or minor scales with these.

Leon Grizzard - Posted - 12/04/2010:  04:31:19

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The inverse of a sixth is a third and visa versa; major becomes minor and visa versa.

Yes, when counting intervals in music, the note you start on is 1 and count from there.

Second position is having moved your hand slightly up the neck to where the note G (or G# less commonly for fiddlers) is played with your first finger on the E string; third position up a little higher to where A is played first finger E string.

fiddleiphile - Posted - 12/04/2010:  05:48:11

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Oscar the most simple to understand that I've found is Mel Bay's Fiddling Chord Book by Craig Duncan. It shows all double stop chords in each key plus the key arpeggeo they are derived from. It covers Maj. min. 7ths aug. dim. min7 and 6th chords. If you can read simple notation, this is a breeze. melbay.com Go to products, scroll down to authers, punch on Craig Duncan, read down the list to Fiddling Chord Book. It can also be purchased as an e-book.

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Edited by - fiddleiphile on 12/04/2010 06:01:18

Bart - Posted - 12/04/2010:  05:59:23

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quote:

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Originally posted by Oscar

Also to make things difficult I found lot of references like "double stops in 2nd position" or double stops in 3th position - what is this exactly ?

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As I understand it, 3rd position is moving your hand up the neck so that your 1-finger (index finger) is now starting the scale where your 3-finger (ring fiinger) would be if you were playing in first position. So, on the G string, you move your first finger up to C, on the D string, you move your first finger up to G, on the A string it goes up to D, and as Leon mentioned, on E it goes up to A.

2nd and 4th position use similar ideas, for the 2nd finger and 4th finger, respectively (I think).

I'm new, and just learning 3rd position right now, so YMMV.

Bart - Posted - 12/04/2010:  06:01:22

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Also, Leon didn't mention it, but his Mel Bay book called Hokum: Theory and Scales for Fiddle Tunes and Improvisation has been a nice way for me to get started with this.

Dick Hauser - Posted - 12/04/2010:  08:23:12

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It is easier to accomplish something when you understand what you are doing. To use double stops most effectively, a player should learn/know basic scale and chord theory. After that, read a little on musical intervals. This will teach you how to create any double stop, and let you know what it should sound like - before you play it.

In fiddling, I haven't found many short cuts. Learning new things quite often requires lots of work.

FiddleJammer - Posted - 12/04/2010:  10:32:58

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If you'd rather not understand the theory behind it, some people think of double stops as easy shapes for finger patterns. Folks who can't read a lick of notation or spout any ounce of theory can learn double stops EZPZ. Some are straight lines, some diagonal. Some are whole tones, some are halves. In fiddling, I have found many short cuts. Learning new things sometimes comes like breathing.

Do not be afraid.

:-)

Cross tuning the fiddle helps to make a little more sense because of the drones on open strings. They don't require any brain power at all.

Oscar - Posted - 12/05/2010:  08:24:21

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Thanks to all. I am not completely ignorant to notation etc, but sometimes it is getting pretty confusing. Sometimes I feel like Bernard reading the tax form :"Did your non-returnable outgoings for the first half of the year exceed your deductions for quarterly VAT returns?"

Oscar - Posted - 12/05/2010:  11:11:54

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So here is a sheet I draw for key of G doublestops in 6th and 3th from my understanding of all the above. I also draw few for other keys. That gave me abit of aha moment. So in practical terms it is a one finger position above on lower string or two finger positions above on higher string.

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Edited by - Oscar on 12/05/2010 11:34:33

Key G Doublestops

fiddlenbanjo - Posted - 12/06/2010:  20:17:27

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quote:

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Originally posted by Oscar

Thanks to all. I am not completely ignorant to notation etc, but sometimes it is getting pretty confusing.

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If you were to take a piece of paper (I used a color tinted sheet of clear plastic) and placed it over your chart, and then punched out holes directly over all the G,B and D notes, you could then use that same 'stencil' to find the major arpeggios of any key. Just write 1, 3, or 5 beside the holes. 1 beside the G. 3 for the B and 5 beside the hole with the D. Then just slide the stencil to where the 1 hole is over the key you want to find the arpeggios and corresponding doublestops for.

You could do the same for minor arpeggios, pentatonic scales, etc.

It's more work than most people need to do. Once you see the relationship of the scales and arpeggios you won't need the stencil. The point is that because the fiddle strings all being a 5th apart, any scale pattern, arpeggio, layout of key doublestops you learn to recognize in one key is immediately interchangeable and usable for any key. This is a lot easier and more convenient than the guitar. A LOT.

Oscar - Posted - 12/07/2010:  06:31:14

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I sure will do that. A little work, but that makes it remember much better.
Yes, fiddle makes a lot of sense with the 5th, being a guitar player the whole idea of things on the neck being easier is a bit new to me.

FiddleJammer - Posted - 12/07/2010:  08:27:05

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It's a good thing to do, take a pencil and paper and work out this stuff. Circle of 5ths, chords, scales, etc. Seeing a 2 dimensional picture of patterns helps to move the concepts over to the right side of the brain for processing.

Oscar - Posted - 12/07/2010:  08:40:53

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Sometimes I feel that both halves of my brain are left.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 12/07/2010:  09:36:10

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I ordered the Jim Van Cleve video, here's a snigglet example on youtube: youtube.com/watch?v=BS55xq-uzJs although I'm not really that Bluegrass oriented, I still like a double stop here and there and wanna feel comfortable with knowing how to get there when I need it... I've liked his video... HOURS of him showing how he manages to do double stops and other stuff in all keys... I like the video because I'm not into someone teaching note-to-note, boring do this and that to a T, but instead I learn better from just hearing and seeing what others do to get around on their instruments. Jim Van Cleve does that very well on the video... not exactly a teacher, just like a friend who plays great and shows you how he gets what he gets from his fiddle.

Bart - Posted - 12/08/2010:  06:39:07

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Groundhogpeggy, thanks for that link. That might be my Christmas present to myself.

Oscar - Posted - 12/10/2010:  09:49:25

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Yeah that sounds/looks great video.

Bart - Posted - 12/10/2010:  19:25:30

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quote:

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Originally posted by Oscar

Sometimes I feel that both halves of my brain are left.

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Me, too. I just can't remember left where?

Actually, I tend to have 2 right halves.