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B.G. Fiddleman - Posted - 08/30/2010: 21:48:51
Hi everybody,
I need some help with a few questions, please. I asked my instructor which key the violin/fiddle is tuned in and she told me that unlike many instruments which are tuned to a specific key, the fiddle (and mandolin) are tuned in fifths. She tried to explain it to me, but I couldn't quite understand the explanation. Can anyone explain what it means to be tuned in fifths? Secondly, does this only apply if the fiddle is in standard GDAE tuning? Are all stringed instruments tuned in some sort of fraction? I think I read somewhere that the guitar is tuned in fourths (I don't understand that either if it's true). I think I understand what it means to be tuned to a specific key. Does it mean that the instrument can only play notes that are within that key?
Thanks for any help you can offer.
Edited by - B.G. Fiddleman on 08/30/2010 21:54:46
cheekee - Posted - 08/30/2010: 22:56:44
the musical alphabet goes: A B C D E F G ...again and again.
to tune in fifths means...
the lowest string is G......(G is 1, A is 2, B is 3, C is 4 and D is 5)
the second lowest string is D.....(so now you do it again...D is 1, E, F,G, A is 5)
the next string is A....(so now you do it again....A, B, C, D, E is 5)
the highest pitched string is 5.
since you sound kinda new, i left out the sharps so it isn't more confusing than it needs to be. a fifth sounds like "twinkle twinkle". if you pluck the G and D strings, the D and A strings, and the A and E strings together in those pairs, you will hear it.
a guitar is tuned in 4ths with one exception. a 4th sounds like "here comes the bride"
most stringed instruments can have alternate tunings where all of the open strings make one single chord. that might be what you're thinking of when you asked what key the violin is tuned in.
or...the violin is a "C instrument" meaning that when you play a C on a violin in regular tuning, it is a true C. if you were playing on a clarinet (a Bb instrument) a french horn (an F instrument) or an alto sax (Eb instrument), and everyone played their "C"...it would all be a different note because the music has been transposed to accomodate the physics of the instruments.
hope that helps.
cheekee - Posted - 08/30/2010: 22:58:13
hahaha. and i even checked it.
the highest pitched string is NOT 5. it is E. ha ha
echord - Posted - 08/31/2010: 09:07:20
Well, here's my awkward attempt to explain this theory stuff, FWIW:
The fiddle is a chromatic instrument and can play any note in any key when tuned to standard tuning.
Tuning in fifths (G-D-A-E), means the strings are tuned a major 5th apart, ascending up the scale from top to bottom. That is, the low string is tuned to G (below middle C on the piano), the next string up is tuned a 5th higher to D, the next string is tuned a 5th higher to A, and the top string is tuned a 5th higher to E. Thus, any two open adjacent strings bowed together will produce the interval of a major fifth, i.e., G-D, D-A, A-E, since each string is tuned five scale notes higher than the preceding string.
The major fifth in any scale is the fifth note up from the root note -- in the C scale the 5th is G -- in the D scale the fifth is A, etc. On the piano keyboard, the 5th can be found by counting 8 keys up from the root note (using both black and white keys, which is a chromatic scale - chromatic meaning "all the tones").
Sometimes fiddlers re-tune the instrument to different tunings to provide an open chord across all four strings, such as tuning to A-E-A-C# to give an open A chord. In this tuning then, only A tunes can be played. This is "cross tuning" and often done in traditional music.
That's how I understand it, anyway. 
ajisai - Posted - 08/31/2010: 09:11:41
quote:
Originally posted by B.G. Fiddleman
Does it mean that the instrument can only play notes that are within that key?
The wonderful terrible thing about the violin is that it can play notes that aren't in any key at all! Just listen to me practice sometime . . . <laugh>
I can't claim to know a lot about music theory, but the more you study the fiddle the more you'll notice patterns that have to do with thirds and fourths and fifths and the like. I'm in awe of them. They're rather elegant and amazing.
mswlogo - Posted - 08/31/2010: 09:42:57
I'm very much a begginer and may have things a bit wrong but this is my understanding.
It ALL has to do with Chords. Chords are made up of the First, Third, Fifth, and Eigth degree of a scale. That's the 1,3,5,8 notes on ANY scale.
Chords are everywhere in music. Each phrase of music is typically made of notes from within a chord.
It is no accident that a Violin is tuned in Fifths. The First and Fifth degree of a chord are always right next to each other. Open strings or fingered.
You can also finger 1 and 3, 1 and 8, 3 and 5 etc. I have not thought it through but I think you can finger any two notes in a chord.
If it was tuned in thirds or eigths I don't think you could.
If it was in Thirds it would need too much string crossing to cover an octave or two.
If it was in Eigths it would require going up and down the strings too much.
Fifths is a happy medium.
Keep in mind you can only play 2 notes at a time because of the curved fret board. Quite often the 1 and 5 of a chord sounds "good".
Arpeggios (which you are hopefully learning & practicing) are broken chords. 1 note of chord at a time in sequence.
That's why they are so important because Music is made up with chords (arpegios).
In some cases changing keys only requires just moving over a string and uses the same fingering (if the Key is 1 fifth apart). Like G and D (probably the two most common Fiddle Keys).
Edited by - mswlogo on 08/31/2010 09:51:17
bj - Posted - 08/31/2010: 17:10:49
What you called "fractions" are actually intervals.
There are 8 notes in ANY scale, be it major, minor, whatever. So if you can count to 8 you can figure out the intervals. The 1 and 5 are considered a fifth. So in the key of A the A is the one and the E is the five. In the key of D the D is the one and the A is the five. In the key of G, the G is the one and the D is the five.
hardykefes - Posted - 09/02/2010: 09:31:46
bj quote: "There are 8 notes in ANY scale, be it major, minor, whatever." --- may I correct your statement:
There are heptatonic scales (7 notes) and pentatonic scales (5 notes) in the world's music (I am quoting from WIKIPEDIA):
A pentatonic scale is a musical scale with five notes per octave in contrast to a heptatonic (seven note) scale such as the major scale. Pentatonic scales are very common and are found all over the world, including Celtic folk music, Hungarian folk music, West African music, African-American spirituals, American folk music, Jazz, American blues music and rock music, Sami joik singing, children's songs, the music of ancient Greece[2][3] and the Greek traditional music and songs from Epirus, Northwest Greece and the music of Southern Albania, the tuning of the Ethiopian krar and the Indonesian gamelan, Philippine Kulintang, melodies of Korea, Malaysia, Japan, China, India and Vietnam (including the folk music of these countries), the Andean music, the Afro-Caribbean tradition, Polish highlanders from the Tatra Mountains, and Western Classical composers such as French composer Claude Debussy. The pentatonic scale is also used on the Great Highland Bagpipe.
read more about pentatonic here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentatonic_scale
Edited by - hardykefes on 09/02/2010 09:33:01
bj - Posted - 09/03/2010: 06:21:58
Okay, I stand corrected. Most western music uses 8 tone scales, with the above exceptions.
jehanna - Posted - 09/03/2010: 10:16:44
quote:
Originally posted by ajisai
[quote]Originally posted by B.G. Fiddleman
Does it mean that the instrument can only play notes that are within that key?
I can see where this could be confusing. No, all instruments can play with any number of sharps
and flats and thus in any key. If an instrument is tuned to C for example it means the scales start on the lowest C
and goes up to the next C with no alterations needed to make sharps or flats. This is simplistic but it gives the
idea. String instruments are not keyed this way, the nature of the beast as explained above.
hardykefes - Posted - 09/03/2010: 14:23:32
bj, bj, bj,....it's still 7 tones :-)
You don't count the eights because it's like the 1st.
...sorry, I don't make the rules. But everybody knows what you mean. :-)
Mandogryl - Posted - 09/15/2010: 04:15:58
C, C#, D, D#, E, F, F#, G, G#, A, A#, B,........= 12? I am missing something. Or are the sharps (or flats) 'half-notes'.
fiddlenbanjo - Posted - 09/15/2010: 06:28:30
quote:
Originally posted by Mandogryl
C, C#, D, D#, E, F, F#, G, G#, A, A#, B,........= 12? I am missing something. Or are the sharps (or flats) 'half-notes'.
That's all of 'em --called the chromatic scale. It's tough to play well on the fiddle, but good practice because you have to make small adjustments with your finger to find the notes. Great for your ear.
FiddleJammer - Posted - 09/15/2010: 11:31:16
Do
Re
Mi
Fa
Sol
La
Ti
That will bring us back to...
Do
masameet - Posted - 10/09/2010: 12:51:08
quote:
Originally posted by Mandogryl
C, C#, D, D#, E, F, F#, G, G#, A, A#, B,........= 12? I am missing something. Or are the sharps (or flats) 'half-notes'.
Yes. You missed B#.
carlb - Posted - 10/09/2010: 14:36:12
quote:
Originally posted by masameet
Yes. You missed B#.
[/quote]
Will Dbb (D double flat) do instead?
fiddlepogo - Posted - 10/09/2010: 15:01:29
Well, the "5" from the "fifth" is based on the fifth note of a major scale, yes.
However, you play mandolin, and a mandolin has frets, and frets
are late out in a chromatic scale or in half-steps, depending on how you look at it.
and fiddle/violin tuned standard is tuned just like mandolin.
Well, the mandolin strings (actually the pairs) are tune 7 frets or halfsteps apart, and that equals a "fifth".
(5 scale notes plus 2 flat/sharp notes =7)
And most of the strings on a guitar and all of the strings on a bass are tune five frets apart and that equals a "fourth".
One of the primary advantages of an instrument tuned in fifths is that you can play a full octave scale on only two strings instead of three. And so you can get more than two octaves with four strings where with a guitar it takes SIX strings to get about the same number of notes. So you have more notes under your fingers with fewer string changes and less hand movement.
(4 scale notes plus 1 flat/sharp note = 5)
And the one pair of strings on guitar that's not tuned in fourths is tune in a third-
it's four frets apart-
3 scale notes plus 1 flat/sharp note = 4.
leemysliwiec - Posted - 10/12/2010: 14:59:41
B.G. Fiddleman.....I hope that this dialogue hasn't scared you off. The information is in the above comments if you look hard enough. Good Luck.
masameet - Posted - 10/12/2010: 17:50:05
Ha! How comes nobody ever mentions E#!?
Learner - Posted - 10/13/2010: 08:34:46
quote:
Originally posted by Mandogryl
C, C#, D, D#, E, F, F#, G, G#, A, A#, B,........= 12? I am missing something. Or are the sharps (or flats) 'half-notes'.
In Western music, there are 12 "half-steps" or "half-step intervals" in a diatonic scale, starting from the tonic (starting note) to the next octave. This breaks down into 5 "whole-step" and 2 "half-step" intervals, which gives a total of 7 intervals from the tonic to the next octave.
For the natural major scale of C Major:
- the half-step interals are between E-F, and B-C.
- the whole-step intervals are between C-D, D-E, F-G, G-A, and A-B.
The notes of a scale are also refered to as the "degrees" of the scale. So for the scale of C Major, C = 1st degree, D is the 2nd degree, E is the 3rd degree, F is the 4th degree, etc.
From this it can be seen that the half-step intervals occur between the 3rd & 4th degrees, and the 7th & 8th degrees of a major diatonic scale.
This pattern holds true for all other major scales, such as G, A, D, F, Bb, etc. They all have the half-steps occurring between the 3rd/4th degrees and 7th/8th degrees.
Best wishes,
Frank
Edited by - Learner on 10/13/2010 08:37:12
FiddleJammer - Posted - 10/13/2010: 09:31:23
quote:
Originally posted by masameet
Ha! How comes nobody ever mentions E#!?
From the note above...
"For the natural major scale of C Major:
- the half-step interals are between E-F, and B-C.
- the whole-step intervals are between C-D, D-E, F-G, G-A, and A-B."
Visualized best on a piano keyboard, I think. There is no black key between B and C, and E and F. ie, it's a half step not a whole step. E# is technically F, E is technically Fb.
The major scale in any key WWHWWWH, W = Whole, H = Half.
*Corrected - Thanks*
Fiddlers often think of finger positions as low or high, but it's good to know how to gauge your whole and half steps on your strings. You'll notice this if you try to play 'Do Re Mi, etc.' starting on different notes. This is a way for non-readers to learn more about scales.
Hope this helps.
Edited by - FiddleJammer on 10/13/2010 19:51:44
coelhoe - Posted - 10/13/2010: 10:30:17
Shouldn't that be W W H W W W H? I think you have one too many "W" at the start.
C-D D-E E-F F-G G-A A-B B-C
W W H W W W H
Learner - Posted - 10/13/2010: 18:24:08
quote:
Originally posted by hardykefes
bj, bj, bj,....it's still 7 tones :-)
You don't count the eights because it's like the 1st.
...sorry, I don't make the rules. But everybody knows what you mean. :-)
Hello Hardy:
The octave tone of a given scale can be referred to as the " 8th degree". Also, the second degree of that next higher octave can be called the "9th degree" of the previous octave, etc. Some chords structures include 9ths, 11ths, etc in them.
Here's a quote from Ed Roseman's "Music Theory for Practical People":
"The major scale has eight notes - seven if you take into account that the first and eigth notes are the same note an octave apart".So I believe that BJ's statement is correct. But yours is also.
Best wishes,
Frank
Edited by - Learner on 10/13/2010 18:27:17
FiddleJammer - Posted - 10/13/2010: 19:52:13
quote:
Originally posted by coelhoe
Shouldn't that be W W H W W W H? I think you have one too many "W" at the start.
C-D D-E E-F F-G G-A A-B B-C
W W H W W W H
*Corrected - Thanks*
Peghead - Posted - 10/15/2010: 12:02:13
B.G. Quite a few people have had a whack at this but I still don't think you've been answered entirely. Let me put my .02 cents in.
quote:
I asked my instructor which key the violin/fiddle is tuned in and she told me that unlike many instruments which are tuned to a specific key, the fiddle (and mandolin) are tuned in fifths.
The use of the word "key" in this context is off target, or perhaps something has been lost along the way between you and your teacher. The term "key", refers to where, in the full spectrum of notes a specific piece of music will be played. For example, if you can't sing the high notes in a song you need to restart the song in a lower "key" or lower starting point. A song can be played in any number of keys, it's still the same song, just in a different place.
Now tuning - Commonly speaking, instruments are not tuned to a specific "key". (OT's heel! heel!) A properly tuned fiddle (in standard GDAE tuning) is capable of being played in any "key". (It's hard to believe) To tune an instrument it must be individually synced up (calibrated) to a standard reference note, usually an A (440) or a tuning fork. If we each do that, the A note on my fiddle should sound just like the A note on your saxophone (or whatever instrument ). Since we have each tuned to a standard note we should also in tune with each other - almost. Unlike the saxaphone whose notes all self adjust when you tune to the A, the string players work is not done. We have to now put the other strings into their proper relationship using the A as starting reference. When we say the fiddle is tuned in 5ths we're taking about the relationship between the notes of the open strings going from
lower to higher. So, starting with the G string, D is the 5th note of the G major scale, A is the fifth note of the D major scale, Etc. Keep in mind a technical point but it's important - if you consider the relationships going in the other direction from
higher to lower open strings, it could also be said that the fiddle is tuned in 4ths. (A is the 4th note of the E major scale, D is the 4th note of A major, etc. The nomenclature all depends on which note you reference from and the direction you go in. If your A string is the reference note, tuning the E is the 5th. (of A) When you go in the other direction to tune the D to the A , D is the 4th,(of A) and G is the 4th (of D). At the end of the day a rose is a rose, the harmony is for all practical purposes, the same. We know what the sound should be but, - just to be precise on the dual nature of the relationship. Standard tuning - GDAE is 5ths going from lower to higher, and 4ths if you go from higher to lower. Guitar is the reverse except for the *#$% B string. The circle of 5ths goes clockwise, counterclockwise gives you the circle of 4ths. Greg
Edited by - Peghead on 10/15/2010 13:38:26
