fiddleflow - Posted - 08/20/2010:  12:38:12

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Hi, is solfege the best way to learn to play by ear?. If so, where can one get the proper training. Thanks.

Eric Sprado - Posted - 08/20/2010:  12:59:31

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If there were ONE THING I WISHED I HAD as a kid it would be solfege ear training!!!!!!!!!!A few folks in any genre of playing have natural ears for playing but most of us don't. If there is a college nearby ask their music department. Many piano teachers have and teach solfege. Indeed-it is taught at the piano. Solfege is completely genre non-specific and will benefit anybody wanting to learn ANY music by ear. My idea---- DO IT....

Oh-and don't let naysayers distract you. It can be used with no need to abandon plain old listening and working out on your own. Everything you do jam wise or alone will only add to,not distract from,your musical skills.

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Edited by - Eric Sprado on 08/20/2010 13:01:52

cheekee - Posted - 08/20/2010:  13:00:16

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so...solfege is do-re-mi etc (for those who don't know). i did a performance degree (NOT on violin or fiddle) and solfege is part of musicianship skills...a required class at the universities i've attended.

as someone who spent waaaaaaaaaaay too much time doing that stuff in the past, i can say that knowing that stuff is helpful i guess, but i rarely make use it myself excpt when choosing music at the music store. i think that's because when i was in school, solfege was used for sight singing. that means, they would hand us a piece of music, and we would read the melody, while singing, in solfege. they never played us a melody and had us sing it back in solfege. so...having someone throw me a fiddle tune and me figure it out in solfege...i dunno...i feel like it takes way too long.

today however, i might pick apart a trouble spot using solfege from time to time...but for the most part, i think its easier to just sing the melody using whatever syllable you want to indicate the bowing (if you can). for example, recently i learned a tune in a minor key, and there was a funny interval in it that for some reason, i just couldn't sing that portion of the melody.. it was like a train wreck. so i decided to pick it apart with solfege...and once i realized that it was a tritone (or aug 4 or dim 5), it made sense. its the ugliest interval...not the easiest to sing for the non-vocalist. once i did that, i could play the tune. but is that really necessary? i don't think it is...there are plenty of ways you could make sense of a trouble spot without solfege.


i guess as someone who use solfege well, i don't think it is the key to melody playback - not for me at least. it is important that you can sing the melody (hopefully recognizing accents to help develop bowing), recognize the intervals (the distance between two notes) and be able to keep a beat.

cheekee - Posted - 08/20/2010:  13:11:16

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oh...but i should say...my ablilty to determine relative pitch (i don't have perfect pitch) is actually reeeeeeeealy good and always has been for no reason at all. my brain just works that way. because of this, i know when i'm not playing in tune.

if you lack experience with ear training or struggle to sing back a melody after its played and knowing whether or not the notes you're playing are in tune, then solfege along with ear training and such would be very good. you could easily find a piano teacher (i think) to work on this with s/he sat at the piano and you on your fiddle. the key to unlocking all this stuff (in my opinion) is your willingness to sing it.

fiddleflow - Posted - 08/20/2010:  13:18:12

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Cheekee, I am looking for ear training program, and are solfege and ear training the same thing?. Thanks.

wooliver - Posted - 08/20/2010:  13:28:30

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Don't know what ida done without it? Though i only had the free training: I watched the movie, The Sound of Music. In real solfege, so im told, Doe = C. (?) In my world, Doe is the first note of any major scale. To hear the interval is the important part. Eric's right. It matters not the instrument.

cheekee - Posted - 08/20/2010:  15:23:42

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my experience with solfege was to use it specifically as a tool for reading music off of a page. we never used solfege to learn a melody and play it back on an instrument or vocally. it doesn't mean it can't be done or that the goal was to just make those skills...inherent? as i said, i do use solfege when learning a tune though it is very rarely...it just wasn't how i was taught to use it.

basic ear training (which may be a good place to start for a lot of people) teaches you to recognize intervals and playback simple melodies vocally, on a keyboard or other instrument. usually a piano because then you begin to get used to the interval when it is played IN TUNE. i think that if you develop that recognition, and you still have trouble recognizing learning melodies & knowing when you're playing in tune and when you're not, it would probably be a good idea to graduate to solfege. but i would look to do some ear training first...recognition is always easier than reproducing a sound. it kinda works like language acquisition i think. easier to understand at first, then we start learning to reproduce it.

solfege can seem confusing because french titles of songs use the same syllables as the note names. but "do" does not = C. so that is good news. solfege would be soooooooooo confusing if that were the case!

but solfege training isn't french music notation. it uses specific syllables to create the scales...and it is always moveable. no matter what key you're playing, whether it is major, minor or modal, the first note will always be "do" ...and there are different syllables to note the changes (so that means, you wouldn't sing do re mi fa sol la ti do for anything except a major scale). but...solfege does help you create an awareness of your ability to hear something and create an output...and it will surely improve tone, playing in tune, and remembering melodies.

so i think that if you haven't had much or any ear training...i would start there. learn to listen, recognize and identify intervals, rhythms and very short melodic passages. just about any trained music teacher should be competent in doing that with you because this is the type of thing a music teacher should be doing with their students. once you have the recognition down (and everyone is different...some people catch on really fast, others really have to learn how to listen)...THEN if you want to find someone to do solfege with you, go for it. you will probably need to find a piano teacher who can teach to a very high level student to work with you...or a graduate of a university music program where this was a required skill (not everywhere probably, but most places).

i hope that helps.

M-D - Posted - 08/20/2010:  16:06:59

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Sounds like shape-note singing: ozarktraditions.org/the-music/...e-singing

Dick Hauser - Posted - 08/20/2010:  16:10:53

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A studio guitarist mentioned his days as a young violin student in New York. The guitar player was pretty old so this was quite a while ago. When he was a youth, Italian American
violin teachers used this technique. Before you could attempt to play a piece of notation, you had to be able to read the music and sing the melody.

I think this would a great way to learn several skills at the same time. Your learn to (1) read notation (2) hear the melody in your head (3) reproduce the melody using your voice. That would make learning to play the notation a lot easier. If you don't start out that way, it takes a lot of work before notation reading skills reach that level.

wormbower - Posted - 08/20/2010:  18:31:05

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Matt Glaser's Ear Training for Instrumentalists is really good.

Paul

fiddlenbanjo - Posted - 08/20/2010:  19:43:00

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quote:

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Originally posted by wormbower

Matt Glaser's Ear Training for Instrumentalists is really good.

Paul

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I'll second that.

cheekee - Posted - 08/20/2010:  19:44:27

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M-D....that's kinda cool. it looks like its a similar idea...but since i don't know much about it i am a little confused as to exactly how it was done. i was good until the jumbled solfege syllables. lol. i can see it must work for a lot of people.

wormbower...that looks pretty good. i hadn't seen that before. :)

coelhoe - Posted - 08/20/2010:  19:51:12

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As M-D points out, solfege is a lot like shape-note singing and in fact the two mtods have their roots in the same place, the desire to teach congregants the ability to sing music off the printed page.

If you get a copy of the "Original Sacred Harp" (Denson Revision), the first 60 pages contain a lesson called "The Rudiments of Music" which will teach you to recognize, replicate, and sing musical intervals (according to the SH symbols).

If you live almost anywhere in the rural lowland South, you can find singing schools that are typically week-long and taught in the evenings. There are also other shape note systems, and there is the seven-shape system which is essentially the same as out do-re-mi.

Once learned, the ability to recognize intervals is the key to playing by ear, playing and singing harmony, and the ability to look at a sheet of music and "hear" the melodies in your head.

The "Original Sacred Harp" publishing company is located in Cullman, Alabama. Everyone interested in traditional music in America should have a copy.

Henry George - Posted - 08/20/2010:  23:44:22

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I teach solfeggio to ALL my students from the very first lessons. Rather than say....'your E ( natural ) is flat", I tell them this E is the second note of the D major scale, so D sounds....'do' then E sounds....'ra'..........etc,....which I then sing to them. I require my students to sing also, and for those to persevere who lack control of thier vocal chords. Solfege is used to recognise all the scales/modes, arpeggi and intervals. Know the intervals that are contained in well known songs, such as............ Twinkle begins with a perfect 5th....(do, do, so, so), la,la.....And My bonny Lies over the Ocean.....the major 6th...........(so, me), ra, do. Micheal Rowed the Boat Ashore, the major arpeggi........(do, me, so), me, so, la, so. There is a heap of this stuff!
This is very useful when tunes begin on a fingered note of the violin, usually a note other than the tonic, which is found by identifing the tonic pitch and then singing.........do, ra, me, me, me...................me, ra, do, ra, me, me, me....ra, ra, ra....me, so, so........................
This is the first stage of ear training which should be accompanied by playing the many easy folk melodies that have been taught to us since early childhood. If there is difficulty at first to play ear, learn it from the dots........ but the ear is then developed when the same tune is transposed to many other keys, each time without looking at the dots. Transposition is a very handy skill for ear training, theory and improvisation.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 08/21/2010:  00:59:05

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Learning solfege is a great way to learn --- solfege. Mostly I see it as a different mnemonic device used for communication purposes.
There are 2 systems of solfege,
Fixed Do, Do is always "C" - some cultures use this, as in it's in the key of Sol.
Movable Do, Do is always one, the root. Used the communication in the relationship of the notes.
Some just use numbers for for the same purposes. I prefer numbers.

Does it really help in recognizing scale steps, pitch relations or intervals? IMO it does not do anything toward actual ear training. Just as naming colors doesn't have anything to do with recognizing colors. But it helps in communication.

For ear training, I like to work with actual sounds of pitch relations and intervals. I like to do that first, before assigning names to them.

wooliver - Posted - 08/21/2010:  08:37:40

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Any data has to have a label so it can be compared or related to similar data. How can you tell a frquency without comparing or measuring it? Then how can you identify said data without a label? Do-ra-mi. Simple.
"hey, play that note." what note? "you know, that note." call it a number, letter or name but it must have a label to be described. Unless you are a true soloist. : )

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Edited by - wooliver on 08/21/2010 08:42:26

Henry George - Posted - 08/21/2010:  18:13:11

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One night while being locked out of our 'music theory' room, and the class standing, waiting for the room to be opened, the teacher said.............
"While we are waiting lets practise our intervals", and she turned to me and said...."sing the dominant 7th arpeggi".

OK then, so I sing.............DO, ME, SO, DO.............'Incorrect, that's the major triad"

So I give it another go............DO, ME, SO, *TAW*.

Yeah, so the 'communication' helped me learn this which I have never forgotten.
What colours do you mix to get this colour?
What are the ingredients of that dish? I would like to make it!

MusicMan13760 - Posted - 08/25/2010:  23:46:17

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Anyone use the Curwen hand signs to help their students?

Klondike Waldo - Posted - 10/25/2010:  13:02:22

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quote:

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Originally posted by MusicMan13760

Anyone use the Curwen hand signs to help their students?

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I had kids in my middle school chorus use it the last few years I was teaching.
I pretty much loathed solfege classes when I was an undergrad music major, but when I started working as a fulltime musician, It certainly helped. And it helped every time I picked up a new instrument. Now that I'm primarily a vocalist (lyric tenor). I find it indispensable, whether I'm learning a new aria or singing the tenor part in choir without having rehearsed it.

bj - Posted - 10/25/2010:  14:11:46

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Well, I play almost exclusively by ear and didn't know there was such a thing as solfege until I read this thread. So the answer to "Is it necessary for ear training?" is no, though it may be helpful, depending on how you learn and what cues your brain will respond to. Another tool in the toolbox.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 10/25/2010:  14:41:03

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When I was in college they called that Sight Singing and EAr Training... and we college kids called it, Sight screaming and ear straining. Anyway, we didn't learn do re mi, what we learned was numbers... 123... we'd have to sing notes and call out the intervals.... i.e., instead of something like do, do, sol, sol, la, la, sol... we'd have to go... " One, one, five, five, six, six, five...." etc.... it seems to have helped me through life more than the other would've, in my own case.

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Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 10/25/2010 14:41:30

P. T. Porter - Posted - 11/01/2010:  06:46:02

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I would NOT suggest using the Sacred Harp songbook to learn solfege, this coming from some one who loves shape note singing. The Deneson book is a 4 note system to cover 7 notes of the scale which could leave someone wanting to learn traditional solfege (do re mi fa so la ti do) very confused. That being said the Rudiments chapter does explain the development of scales and rhythmic notation.

Try this: get a beginners violin or guitar method book, like Mel Bay or one of those with lots of recognizable songs, usually all in quarter notes. Underneath the notes write in the solfege syllable and start singing the melody using those syllables. Sing scales and chord arpeggios (do mi sol do, etc). After a while trying singing, using solfege, a song you've never seen/heard before (from the page) and then check yourself on your instrument. Also sing using solfege tunes that you know very well by ear such as Happy Birthday: sol sol la sol do ti. That's all I'll give of that one.

Any ear training for a few minutes a day will reap big rewards.

PT

coelhoe - Posted - 11/01/2010:  17:49:38

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If you will read my post, you will notice that I said that the music section int he Sacred Harp will teach you "...to recognize, replicate and sing musical intervals," which is what solfege is all about. It seems to me irrelevant whether you use one shape system or another, it is the interval practice that matters. I have attended schools for both four shape and seven shape and the instruction is virtually the same, thought harmonies are sometimes quite different. Any of the Stamps-Baxter hymnals have editions also in the seven shape system.

If you live in south Georgia, southern Alabama, or north Florida, you can find seven shape conventions and singing schools all around you.

toddwright - Posted - 11/29/2010:  17:51:45

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BJ - I read this thread and still don't know what solfege is.

Palmira - Posted - 12/11/2010:  16:35:52

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quote:

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Originally posted by toddwright

BJ - I read this thread and still don't know what solfege is.

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Solfeggio is the art of reading before playing the music. Solfeggio let you read a music paper before playing it. It let you read music in seven different key (Violino, basso, mezzosoprano, soprano, contralto, tenore, baritono).
It s basically useful when you have to play music reading from a staff (pentagramma).
This is "solfeggio".
You can get a license in any music academy. It s compulsory if you want to get a Music Diploma ( At least in Italy).

rafa - Posted - 12/11/2010:  18:22:42

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Hi all, another reason I believe notation is invaluable. After you get proficient at notation, the dots and the tones are ingrained in your memory.
It works for me, but i can look at a unlimited supply of notation, Don`t need to pick up my fiddle and hear the tune in my head, if ilike it then I fiddle with it. (IMHO)----(IMHO!!!)

mswlogo - Posted - 12/11/2010:  21:15:20

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I'm a bit baffled by what "solfege" really means.

I bought this book on "Solfege" amazon.com/Solfege-Solf%C3%A8g...33&sr=1-2

It has ONE "do-re-mi" Scale in C and that's it. The rest of the book is Tunes and Atudes in standard Music Notation.

So then I ordered another book on "Solfege" amazon.com/Solfege-Training-Rh...33&sr=1-1

Same thing, just one C scale in Do-Re-Mi and that's it.

I was really expecting a book with some tunes, atudes, scales, arpegios etc. in "do-re-mi". Do-Re-Mi written below or inplace of the dot on Music Notation.

So it appears to me Solfege is not just "do-re-mi" (it's a small part of it) but it means the whole process of "sight singing".

The second book is really good though and it will take me years to get through it (assuming I last that long). It is a college book and designed to have a teacher.
It is the most complete book on Music Theory I have ever seen. Includes CD's and everything (so far) is on piano and nothing in Do-Re-Mi.

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Edited by - mswlogo on 12/11/2010 21:17:03