jonno - Posted - 03/26/2010:  01:38:25

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It's in the predawn hours and the only sound is the falling rain. I just read a convincing argument that says it is impossible for our fingers to land on the string at the perfect spot to play in tune. Playing with good intonation is a trick. It woke me up. Literally.

Too long to go into here, so I'll write it up as a blog entry.

John

echord - Posted - 03/26/2010:  07:01:40

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Wow. Amazing. No wonder playing the fiddle is so darn challenging. Great article. I remember reading somewhere where J. Heifetz said in an interview that he misses the notes just as often as anybody else, but he was just a bit quicker to correct them than the average violinist.

pinch - Posted - 03/26/2010:  09:04:47

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He says we play in tune by making tiny adjustments of our fingers on the fingerboard within the first ½ second of playing each note.

I notice my fingers doing this all the time. I'm glad to learn that's what I'm supposed to do.

rastewart - Posted - 03/26/2010:  09:18:30

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quote:

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Originally posted by pinch

He says we play in tune by making tiny adjustments of our fingers on the fingerboard within the first ½ second of playing each note.

I notice my fingers doing this all the time. I'm glad to learn that's what I'm supposed to do.

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Me too. Oh wait, that says "second," not "minute," doesn't it? OK, I'm on the right track, just trailing the caboose by a few dozen yards!

~Rich

FiddlinCol - Posted - 03/26/2010:  10:50:32

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There is no doubt that if you are really listening when you practise, your sense of pitch will improve...it has to!
Part of it is scales, placing that finger dead on where the note is. The trick is to be aware of the vibs from the fiddle that resonate in your chest, fed from the fiddle body resting on your collarbone.
Octaves, 5ths and most intervals that can vibe to an open sting will always ring a little louder when they're in tune. if you're sensitive ,you start to recognise it. You feel it.
Adjusting pitch is a bit like vibrato, sort of moving the finger bone within the finger.
And remember that adjustment is always the last call... really try to nail that note spot on.. it's a bit like visualising.
Cheers.

woodwiz - Posted - 03/26/2010:  13:47:27

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I've grahically analyzed a number of top level classical players, and can't see nor hear any indication of sliding into pitch on notes that weren't intentional slides, except rarely. Some passing and leading notes are intentionally played sharp, but the best players' intonation is very, very good. Quality of tone starts with intonation. If a note's not "in tune" for the situation it's played in, it's almost impossible to make it sound really sweet.

Some players, like Perlman play sharp a lot, but sound really good, so I'm thinking it's intentional as well.

One hertz around A440 is about six cents, and the difference is audible to most people, and very audible to people who have developed good ears.

When I play scales, I listen very hard to find the "center" of each note, and it really does help me sound better. When I don't play scales, or when I play tunes with new or strange fingering, my sound suffers, along with any listeners.

rastewart - Posted - 03/26/2010:  14:25:34

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Actually, now that I think about it, I have relevant experience, as I played trombone from fifth grade through high school, and was actually pretty good--hard to believe now, as I struggle with the fiddle, but I was. The similarity of course is that with the slide (as opposed to valves on other brass instruments, or keys on the woodwinds) there is no set place marked out for you for each pitch. (Well, with all the brass instruments it's a combination of slide/valve position and embouchure.) So--yes--practice and lots of it, over a few years, and eventually I developed the ability to hit the right place on the slide and the right tension in the embouchure. If there was any adjustment, when I was at my best, it was tiny and pretty nearly instantaneous, and probably not something I was consciously aware of.

~Rich, rambling on about past glory days again

Mrbluegrassfiddler - Posted - 03/26/2010:  14:36:37

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A few quickies come to mind:

Vibrato on sustained notes cures a bushel of flats and sharps (more to do with concert style playing than fiddlin')
Grease up the fingertips to facilitate better slides up or down to the right pitch
A good dose of humility to open ears to musical guidance
Be kind and offer words encouragement to a new fiddler while improving or correcting skill
Record it and play it back to see how it sounds

woodwiz - Posted - 03/26/2010:  15:17:19

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It's helpful to define "in tune" as sounding good, or sounding like you want it to sound. There's no set pitch that's "in tune" for all occasions. It varies from key to key, what instruments you are playing with, type of music, single notes or double stops (often have to play the bottom note a little sharp), and more.

If you define being in tune as finding the pitch that sounds good in that tune at that particular situation, playing in tune is completely possible; it's done every day.

That being said, slow careful scales and close listening still help a lot.

Susan H - Posted - 04/12/2010:  19:21:49

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I love a good challenge, but this one is going to take a long time. It is really worth it though. I do practice scales before I even start playing...anything. That way I have a good idea of where my fingers need to go. They don't always get there, but it is getting better. I used to hate doing scales, however, for the fiddle/violin it really helps with my ear training. And this learning all the nuances of the fiddle/violin have kept me awake at night.

jfrebel - Posted - 04/12/2010:  19:56:07

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I look at it like singing. nobody sings at the exact hertz. and your voice doesn't have frets.

people sing close enough that it sounds good. and thats what counts. and often you sing along with music to help your voice stay in tune.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 04/12/2010:  20:41:42

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Way I figger it, you still gotta hit those notes close enough so that MOST of your audience or jamming partners think you're playing in tune,
otherwise you may find yourself playing alone!!!

BGT - Posted - 06/03/2010:  20:28:02

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It is why slurs are an integral part of fiddling. If you get good at slurring, you're never off note. The sound
of the rain is all I hear right now.

mudbug - Posted - 06/04/2010:  12:57:40

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quote:

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Originally posted by woodwiz

It's helpful to define "in tune" as sounding good, or sounding like you want it to sound. There's no set pitch that's "in tune" for all occasions. It varies from key to key, what instruments you are playing with, type of music, single notes or double stops (often have to play the bottom note a little sharp), and more.

If you define being in tune as finding the pitch that sounds good in that tune at that particular situation, playing in tune is completely possible; it's done every day.

That being said, slow careful scales and close listening still help a lot.

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Well said. Good definition of "in tune" , and all arguments aside about what scales were used in the past, when someone sings or plays, they're either on pitch...........or they ain't.

Learner - Posted - 06/10/2010:  19:06:44

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quote:

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Originally posted by BGT

It is why slurs are an integral part of fiddling. If you get good at slurring, you're never off note. The sound
of the rain is all I hear right now.

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Hello BGT:

Do you mean "sliding" instead of "slurring"?

I understand a slur to be two or more notes that are played without changing bow direction. Usually this is done by lifting or landing the finger for the next note to be played, or by crossing to a note on the next string, all while maintaining the same bow direction without stopping.

At least that's how I understand it for the violin. Does a slur on the fiddle mean something different. If not, then I'm not certain how a slur helps with intonation.

Maybe you can explain.

Thanks

Frank

Learner - Posted - 06/10/2010:  19:31:28

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quote:

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Originally posted by Susan H

I love a good challenge, but this one is going to take a long time. It is really worth it though. I do practice scales before I even start playing...anything. That way I have a good idea of where my fingers need to go. They don't always get there, but it is getting better. I used to hate doing scales, however, for the fiddle/violin it really helps with my ear training. And this learning all the nuances of the fiddle/violin have kept me awake at night.

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Hello MIss Susan:

I don't know why, but it seems that if I play an open string first, then play the same note with the 4th finger on the next string down the scale, I can usually hit that 4th fingered note almost dead on.

If I just play the 4th fingered note first, I may not be as close to the open string pitch as I'd like. Or as close as if I walked up the scale to that 4th finger. But after I've practiced opens/4ths at the beginning of a warm up, I seem to do better with directly landing a true 4th stop without anything proceeding it.

Because of this, I've started doing some warm up exercises with open strings, and 1st and 4th fingers, to help with my ear training and intonation. It looks something like this:

G string:
G0 A1 D4
D string:
D0 E1 A4
A string:
A0 B1 E4
E string:
E0 F#1 B0

Then I reverse direction and go back down to the G string following the same pattern in reverse; I then pick up tempo, going in both directions; and finally I start playing some little ditties that I make up as I go, using these same stopped and open notes in different combinations.

I also then do this without the first finger, using just open strings and the 4th fingers.

These seem to help me to more accurately hit the stopped 4th finger notes, as well as strengthen my pinkie finger to be able to accurately land those notes without "assistance" from having the 2nd and 3rd fingers already planted on the fingerboard.

Best wishes,

Frank

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Edited by - Learner on 06/10/2010 19:33:10

fiddlenbanjo - Posted - 06/11/2010:  02:51:31

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The fiddle player for Frank Wakefield (can't recall his name right now, sorry. I think he's a member.) tells a story of visiting Kenny Baker's home. After playing a tune for Kenny, Kenny complimented him by saying something like "I hear that you are getting those micro-tones". I don't know what he meant exactly and wish I did, but at the time I interpreted it to mean that he was playing just a bit sharp or flat here and there in a way that pleased Kenny. I wish I had the ears to hear micro tones, if that's what Kenny said. And by the way, Kenny's tone and intonation was/is impeccable! I'm not surprised at all to learn that he hears "micro tones".

Kenny also told him as he welcomed him to his home, "There'll be no Georgia shuffle played in this house." Or something like that. I reckon I wouldn't be welcome. lol

Fidla - Posted - 08/18/2010:  18:08:42

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It's very zen, but I do believe playing in tune has less to do about our ear training, and more to do about practcing scales. If you drive a stick/standard shift car you'll understand what I mean. We call it "muscle memory" and you get it after playing thousands of scales over a period of years.

oldtimestrings - Posted - 08/19/2010:  05:17:56

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Interesting discussion, but since I play old-time music, none of this really pertains to me.

carlb - Posted - 08/19/2010:  07:30:59

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Playing into the early hours of the morning, at Glenville or Clifftop or any other festival, I get to the point where I lose functionality, i.e. my fingers just won't play tunes that know really well. Time for bed!

banjopaolo - Posted - 09/16/2010:  01:04:33

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A good friend of mine used tu say that intonation is a 'bourgeois' matter....
we played together in a string quartet and we named it 'la mala afinacion'!

hardykefes - Posted - 09/16/2010:  12:07:32

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May be I am stupid but I did not get the true reason why someone can not play in tune. All I am reading about frequencies and there related displacements on the fingerboard. The analysis is incomplete because it does not say anything about the different displacement-frequency ratio depending on the fingerboard location. Up the board the numbers look quite different.
Talking about 1/16" which is (I think metric) 1.58 mm. That is quite some distance, I claim that I'll be way more precise than that. Now 1/32" is still 0.79 mm and it is still easy to be more precise. After years of training you can easily be precise on 0.1 mm which is about 1/256".
Listening to Heifetz, he was for sure extremely precise and did not correct the notes. True, we have the ability to correct after hearing the tone. But we have also the ability to train our muscles on precision. How do you thread a needle? How can a Sharpshooter shoot through a card from the side? There are numerous examples of outstanding achieved precision. Our body is phenomenal and can achieve astounding things.
But prerequisite is hard work, hours of practice, a good ear (better two) and concentration.
Don't believe this articles which just trying to comfort you and tell you don't practice, it's not achievable anyway.
I believe it is.

dzen - Posted - 09/19/2010:  10:25:45

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It does seem amazing that we can land a 1/4" wide, almost flat fingertip to sub 64th tolerances, yet violinists do it routinely. I think we make microadjustments by varying fingertip pressure. Kind of like pressing an underinflated volleyball against the floor, the edge of the circle where it contacts the floor will move depending on how hard you press down. And I think it happens so automatically and quickly we're not aware of it. I know if my callouses get too hard it's difficult to play in tune until I buff them down with an emery board.

Bart - Posted - 10/17/2010:  20:23:38

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I have been playing about a year. I grew up on piano, but I don't know much about science or theory. I'm told I have a decent ear, but this instrument drives me crazy most days.

My teacher keeps wondering if I'm getting bored and wanting to learn more tunes, but what I want to keep doing is learning more and more scales and arpeggios, and especially the double stop work. He knows the science and theory, and I don't, but he is teaching me to hear the "wobble" in the sound waves (is that right?) when playing the double stops slightly out of tune. I can hear a little better now when it kind of "locks in" without that wobble. Each week we take a different string to practice, like the D string with the A string or something. I still cannot begin to hear the nuances he can, but I can hear better now when I'm out of tune on those double stops.

I find that if I spend a few minutes doing that work before I start my scales, my scales land a LOT truer. When I do both, my tunes sound a LOT better.

But, better is relative, as this newbie will attest! (I have noticed that when I started, all the deer and elk would lift their heads in alarm, but now they seem to take it in stride...)

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Edited by - Bart on 10/17/2010 20:24:54

jonno - Posted - 10/24/2010:  20:41:17

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Hardy - You make excellent points about the precision that can be achieved with practice and training. I agree that the same applies to playing in tune. John

FiddlinCol - Posted - 01/25/2011:  07:56:15

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My teacher stressed, Practise hitting the note dead on pitch, not close and then adjusting to pitch. Bad habit.

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Edited by - FiddlinCol on 01/25/2011 07:58:47

jonno - Posted - 01/25/2011:  16:06:44

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Funny how the more I practice, the more "dead on" my fingers land.

bsed - Posted - 01/25/2011:  18:13:27

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You know, I think I hit the notes pretty close to where they should be most of the time. (The operative word here is think.) I suspect that the more I recorded myself the more disturbed I'd be. Bring me down to Earth with a THUD for sure!

There's one tune I play where I never can get good intonation all the way through. It's in A (standard tuning).

So whaddaya think? Does anybody else have particular trouble with intonation in certain keys?

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Edited by - bsed on 01/25/2011 18:16:31

Peghead - Posted - 01/26/2011:  07:11:38

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In C, I have to be extra carefull how I tune the open E string (the interpretation of what's "in tune" for the 3rd is a whole topic in itself). E is everywhere in C melodies and because its an open string, once it's set you can't do anything about it on the fly with fingering. So many times after I've started a C tune I wished I had tuned the E differently, but just couldn't hear it at the time in context of the tune. You really should tune the E to the C but the C is a fingered note and so begs it's own reference note. I use the fingered G (checked against the open G) to make a 5,1 chord to get the C in tune, then check the C,E chord. It's a chase for sure. If the 3rd is just a little off it makes everything sound really bad, inconsistant bow pressure is enough to make it annoyingly out of tune. The 5ths are more forgiving harmonically (to my ear). It seems every key has some particular challenge or another. C is taking me some work.

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Edited by - Peghead on 01/26/2011 13:43:28