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haggis

Scotland
272 posts
since 10/19/09

07/17/2017 09:19:33 View haggis's Photo Albums Reply with Quote

Does this make sense to anyone? Trying to improvise over a jazz blues jam track in Bb I found that I was getting a pretty good jazzy sound using the major scale of the 4th degree and also the major scale based on the 4th degree of this second scale. In other words Eb and Ab scales over Bb. Is there any logical musical theory behind this?

Mojohand40

United States
861 posts since 6/13/11

07/17/2017 11:05:33View Mojohand40's MP3 Archive View Mojohand40's Photo Albums Reply with Quote

Just a guess. The Eb major scale: Eb F G Ab Bb C D

The Bb pentatonic: Bb C D F G Bb

 In other words; if you use a Eb major scale; you may be using every note in the Bb major pentatonic. Just depends on which notes you start and end the phrase on.  

My two stupid rules/ thoughts on Jazz improv (your milege may vary):

1) If you hit a wrong note; you will always be only 1/2 step either way from a right note.

2) If you hit a wrong note; do it twice...own it.

: )

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mmuussiiccaall

United States
131 posts since 12/2/13

07/17/2017 13:08:37View mmuussiiccaall's MP3 Archive View mmuussiiccaall's Photo Albums Reply with Quote

As always I have a chart, look at rules at bottom and try pluging it in the chart at the top, your beginning key is on the left.



equivalents

   
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DougD

United States
8230 posts since 12/2/07

07/17/2017 14:46:45View DougD's MP3 Archive View DougD's Photo Albums Reply with Quote

Of course these are all closely related scales. Referencing the Bb scale, Eb adds Ab, which is the. seventh of the Bb scale, and Ab also adds Db, which is the third. So by thinking you're venturing into these keys, you're playing a Bb scale with a flatted third and seventh, both very common "blue" notes. The Bb minor pentatonic scale is Bb, Db, Eb, F, Ab - see the flat third and seventh?



If this way of looking at it helps you, fine, but to me it seems a very convoluted approach to a simple musical problem.


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Loup

Australia
65 posts since 11/24/12

07/17/2017 21:32:13View Loup's MP3 Archive View Loup's Photo Albums View Loup's Blog Send Loup an AOL message Reply with Quote

This topic on jazz playing,is out of my league.Although I do like jazz fiddling,I've yet to understand,then perchance I

might reach Stephan Grapelli level of playing.At my age,it's an illusion.lol Love reading your chats and comments though.

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farmerjones

United States
1231 posts since 10/22/07

07/18/2017 06:41:25 View farmerjones's Photo Albums Reply with Quote

What do they say? "Talking about Music, is like dancing about plumbing."

We that play(at) the fiddle, are (or should be) the most aural bound, because we are the note. We are the double stop. There's no fret, it's us. When i read stuff that's seems a bit over my head, i remember this: When i put on a Steph Grapelli, or John Luc Ponte recording, if i can't play along, at least i understand, at a base/aural level, much more easily. C#minor is easier to play in than to think about. Key of B is another.  I keep reading too. Sometimes it clicks. Sometimes not.

Here's another music thingy/dealy about modes & degrees:

https://www.mandolincafe.com/niles2.html

I still have a circle of fifths printed out. I leave it out all the time. The second i put it away, i'm digging it out again. I should tack it to the wall.

 

 

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UsuallyPickinPlayers Union Member

United States
1690 posts since 10/1/08

07/18/2017 07:38:44 View UsuallyPickin's Photo Albums View UsuallyPickin's Blog Reply with Quote

Closed position scales arpeggios and pentatonics are the ticket to "those " keys. B to Ed to F straight across the up a whole step. A single finger across two strings locates your position and there you go. Single tones and double stops Play on .....

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DougD

United States
8230 posts since 12/2/07

07/18/2017 08:01:32View DougD's MP3 Archive View DougD's Photo Albums Reply with Quote

haggis - Just in case I wasn't clear, the "logical musical theory" behind this is that you are improvising in the Mixolydian and Dorian modes of the key. Consider Eb: Bb is the fifth degree of the scale, and if you use the notes of the Eb scale but start on the fifth its the Mixolydian mode (of the key of the fifth, Bb in this case. And for Ab, Bb is the second degree, and if you start there but use the notes of the Ab scale it will be the Dorian mode of the key of Bb.



We often think of "dropping a sharp" when going to these modes, i.e. writing an A tune with only two sharps instead of three if its in Mixolydian mode, but "adding a flat" amounts to the same thing. In this case you would probably just think of it as Bb with some altered notes, but if the whole piece were like this it could be written with three flats (for Mixolydian) or four flats (for Dorian) instead of the usual two.



As I said, if the idea of fourths helps you, fine, but it seems a roundabout way of approaching it to me.


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pete_fiddle

688 posts since 4/6/14

07/18/2017 09:11:30 Reply with Quote

This guy seem to make quite a lot of sense to me,(jazz wise) although he may be "dancing about architecture",(or plumbing)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qvv2YIH9u7I

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haggis

Scotland
272 posts since 10/19/09

07/18/2017 09:35:19 View haggis's Photo Albums Reply with Quote

quote
: Having read your first post it got me thinking so I looked further into it and yes I came to realise what you are saying about the modes.
Originally posted by DougD
 

haggis - Just in case I wasn't clear, the "logical musical theory" behind this is that you are improvising in the Mixolydian and Dorian modes of the key. Consider Eb: Bb is the fifth degree of the scale, and if you use the notes of the Eb scale but start on the fifth its the Mixolydian mode (of the key of the fifth, Bb in this case. And for Ab, Bb is the second degree, and if you start there but use the notes of the Ab scale it will be the Dorian mode of the key of Bb.

 

We often think of "dropping a sharp" when going to these modes, i.e. writing an A tune with only two sharps instead of three if its in Mixolydian mode, but "adding a flat" amounts to the same thing. In this case you would probably just think of it as Bb with some altered notes, but if the whole piece were like this it could be written with three flats (for Mixolydian) or four flats (for Dorian) instead of the usual two.

 

As I said, if the idea of fourths helps you, fine, but it seems a roundabout way of approaching it to me.

 

 

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Joel Glassman

United States
147 posts since 4/22/09

07/23/2017 17:10:50 Reply with Quote

Does this make sense to anyone? Trying to improvise over a jazz blues jam track in Bb I found that I was getting a pretty good jazzy sound using the major scale of the 4th degree and also the major scale based on the 4th degree of this second scale. In other words Eb and Ab scales over Bb. Is there any logical musical theory behind this?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
It doesn't make sense to me, because it doesn't emphasize the chord changes. Playing on scales which work on all chords in a key, is a "generalization". Playing notes which best define the chords and chord movement is a better strategy [IMO] than "Eb and Ab scales over Bb". The blues reduced to its most basic components is 4 chords. The 1, 4 and 5 chords plus the 1 chord with a flatted 7th. Using the 2 scales you mentioned doesn't emphasize the root b7 in the 4th bar to signal the change to the 4 chord. Also it doesn't steer you to using the 3rd and 7th tones to define the chords as you are playing over them. These things would "ground" one's playing in the structure of the music.

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