My newish fiddle seems to play really well when I use a heavy metal mute but when I take it off it's very hard to play. It seems wild and uncontrollable with a slight wolfiness to the sound. Not a wolfiness on any particular notes or strings, just a general sort of unfocused wolfy quality.  It's also turned out to be quite shrill sounding. When I bought it, I liked it because it has a nice, quick response with the Dominants I like to use, unlike a many fiddles, which seem to respond sluggishly without steel strings.  I'm not a fan of steel strings, for myself.  I suspect the bridge may be too thin. I hadn't been playing for a number of years when I bought it. They always sound better in the shop.  I think I made a bad choice but I'm stuck with it now.  Any ideas on how I may be able to improve things?

More than anything it sounds like it needs set up properly.  There are lots of variables, but things like sound post fit, thickness, and placement, can all greatly affect the sound.  The bridge may need to be changed or fitted better.  It may even mellow out a little as you play it more, lots of time they're just in need of some opening up.   Set up though, seems like the place to start.  Welcome to Fiddle Hangout! 

it sounds like you could use a visit to the violin shop to see a good luthier for set up or just add just ment if your in Milwaukee wis. see korinthian violins 2900 south Delaware ave. phone 414-744-1350 for apointment

Experiment with soundpost position forward or backward.  Moving a sound post is rather tedious for an all thumbs guy like me, so I often experiment by moving the bridge forward or backward to simulate moving the post in relation to the bridge.  If this improves the sound, put the bridge back and move the post to maintain the same relationship.  Or if you don't mind the slight change in scale length, just leave the bridge in the new spot.  This is unconventional advise, but I see no harm in experimenting.

Yup, a visit to the violin shop is in order. I know a guy, a very good player, who likes his violin tending toward the wild and wolfy side, so you might have a good one in your hands.

As a stop-gap, you could try a wolf eliminator on the afterlength. I once had decent results by wadding a piece of artist's kneaded gum eraser around the tail of the D string, about half the size of a garbonzo bean. That looks like a kluge, so your best bet is to take it to a luthier who knows what to do with setups.

I really like the sound of my loudest fiddle with my neodymium magnet mutes, but I found that if I only played it with the mute on, it made the sound WITHOUT the mute harsh and out of balance.... maybe verging on wild and wolfy.  It seems to do better when I practice without the mute most of the time, and just use the mute for gigs or practice situations where I really NEED to quiet it down.

Another odd little thing- I noticed that when finger gunk builds up on the back of the neck, the sound of my loudest fiddle gets louder and harsher.  I take a coffee filter and polish the grunge off of the bare wood section and it mellows it out.  I'm just guessing, but I'm guessing that without the mass of the grunge on it, the neck is free to vibrate more and draws some of the activity away from the body of the fiddle.   Rosin build-up on the strings does the same thing- makes the fiddle loud and harsh.

Also, you might be able to mellow the fiddle out some with a different bow.  Bows can pull more or less volume out of a fiddle, and can hype unpleasant frequencies making the fiddle sound harsh, or can pull a sweet tone out of a fiddle.  Experiment!

And then there's strings... there are strings that are mellower and sweeter than Dominants- among synthetics I prefer Pro Arte's to Dominants, and they are very sweet.  Also, I've heard Dominants don't last that long, and once they go dead, they sound nasty.

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

I really like the sound of my loudest fiddle with my neodymium magnet mutes, but I found that if I only played it with the mute on, it made the sound WITHOUT the mute harsh and out of balance.... maybe verging on wild and wolfy.  

 

I think I'm noticing the same thing. 

Pogo and SamY.  I observed this too, and finally decided that when I practice with the mute on, I actually play harder, or differently at least, trying to optimize the sound that's still there with the mute on.  When I take the mute off and play the same way, I don't like the tone of the instrument either, but when I play it for a while unmuted, my touch lightens up, or at least changes in some way and I get to the point where my playing then optimizes the sound without the mute and I like it more.  So, how much of the issue is related to equipment(mutes, sound posts, bridge etc), and how much is related to the way a person handles the bow.  My guess is that once the equipment is known to be set up reasonably well, the rest all lies with the bowing touch. 

When I started out and heard a sound I didn't like(which happened a lot LOL) I went looking for something to fix on the fiddle to correct the sound, these days I'm looking at my playing for the answers. 

quote:

---

Originally posted by bandsmcnamar

Pogo and SamY.  I observed this too, and finally decided that when I practice with the mute on, I actually play harder, or differently at least, trying to optimize the sound that's still there with the mute on.  When I take the mute off and play the same way, I don't like the tone of the instrument either, but when I play it for a while unmuted, my touch lightens up, or at least changes in some way and I get to the point where my playing then optimizes the sound without the mute and I like it more.  So, how much of the issue is related to equipment(mutes, sound posts, bridge etc), and how much is related to the way a person handles the bow.  My guess is that once the equipment is known to be set up reasonably well, the rest all lies with the bowing touch. 

When I started out and heard a sound I didn't like(which happened a lot LOL) I went looking for something to fix on the fiddle to correct the sound, these days I'm looking at my playing for the answers. 

---

Touch may be part of it, but I think there is something else going on.  I have noticed that many tweaks that release a part of the fiddle that was previously muted by excess finish or chinrest location require some break-in time- it takes some time for the new frequencies released to get to where the wood is responding to them smoothly instead of harshly.  When a mute is applied, some frequencies are taken out of the spectrum entirely, while others continue working and vibrating the various parts of the fiddle.  It's like if I play enough with the mute for the fiddle to get to where it has a singing tone with the mute, those very singing tones will be TOO MUCH when added to the newly released (and therefore rather harsh sounding) frequencies.  Perhaps the very combination of singing tones and harsher tones is inherently "wolfy" sounding.

You can get a LOT of answers from your playing, but some qualities of the fiddle will just flavor everything.

And some of them will take you right out of your comfort zone-  if your comfort zone is playing with a light touch, a fiddle that requires a heavy touch will bring you into a place where you aren't as well controlled- and if a fiddle requires a light touch, and you are  used to using a heavy touch, it's going to squawk and complain.

Two of my Knilling 4KFs require a very different touch- and it takes some getting used to one or the other.

I'm trying to tweak the one that requires a heavier touch to respond better to a lighter one.

I don't doubt that you're right..  I've always been amazed that if I pick up one of my violins and it hasn't been played in a day or so, I get one tone out of it, but if I blow a couple of warm breaths into the chamber, it sounds a lot better.  Hears what really boggles my mind, this happens even more pronounced with my cigar box fiddle.  Makes me wonder if part of the warm up process is not the wood so much as getting the air inside the instrument to a certain temperature, or even moisture level since one's breath would have a certain amount of moisture to it.  Funny critters them fiddles. 

I had a fiddle that sounded better with a mute on then when it was off, turned out to be the guy playing it :)

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

....Perhaps the very combination of singing tones and harsher tones is inherently "wolfy" sounding.

---

Can you describe this "wolfy" sound we're talking about?  I have a fiddle that I would describe as "hollow" sounding, similar to processing the sound through a reverb-like effect.  Does this sound like wolfy?  Sometimes I like the sound, sometimes I don't.

Thanks for all the quick replies and for welcoming me to the forum.
I think I do need to get it to a good setup person. I've had limited success in the past getting people to make my instruments sound better. That could have just been that my instruments were beyond redemption. Unfortuntely, I'm not anywhere near Milwaukee. Although I've never been to Milwaukee, so I don't know if I'm fortunate or unfortunate...just kidding ;)
I will try moving the bridge, that has worked for me before. I'd forgottten about doing that. Good idea.
I do agree that playing constantly with a mute may effect the tone when it's played without. I think it could be partly that you just get used to hearing the certain muted frequencies and when you take it off your ear doesn't hear it correctly and/or partly that it changes the way the instrument vibrates. I've experienced both things. That may be part of it the problem but it really needs some kind of adjustment. Another thing is that I live in an apartment and, although none of my neighbours have ever complained, I feel a little bit self-conscious about my playing so I use the mute most of the time. I do try to play in the day without a mute or for short bursts in the evening.
One thing I that did help was changing strings. I changed the Dominants for a set of Violinos, but I kept the wound Dominant e string. It's made a huge difference. The Violinos are much, much warmer sounding and they are much lower tension than the Dominants. They respond more quickly and the sound is more focused. The change has been dramatic. Still, it doesn't sound great, just better. Maybe 50% as horrible. It seems less choked and screechy.
I will try the other things suggested still but the Violinos were a good start. I've never tried Pro Artes. They are a lot cheaper than Violinos but I already had the Violinos. I'll try the Pro Artes soon. I've spent a huge amount of money in my life trying different strings. What a weird, fickle instrument we play.
By wolfy, I suppose you could call the sound hollow. It's very unfocused and harsh and it's hard to control the nuances. The lower tension strings have helped. I don't know whether it's the horrible sound or the fact that it's sypmptomatic of something not being adjusted correctly, so I can't play it very well because it's vibrating like crazy that is the bigger problem.

Edited by - Antonio on 08/29/2012 18:24:45

quote:

---

Originally posted by Antonio

....the Violinos were a good start. I've never tried Pro Artes. They are a lot cheaper than Violinos but I already had the Violinos. I'll try the Pro Artes soon. I've spent a huge amount of money in my life trying different strings.

---

 I don't know what steel strings you may have tried, but to my ears some steel strings are warmer sounding than Dominants, and most will give easier response than any synthetic.  Two good ones are Superflexible, and Helicore, especially heavy gage in the Helicore.

Steel strings all seem too one dimensional to me. I've heard others sound good playing them but when I play them,  they seem like they only have two sounds, on and off. I've tried almost all of them. I can see why some people may be attracted to them but I don't care for them.

I had a dog of an old fiddle once, and it sounded much better with the mute on. All screechy with the mute off, much more balanced with it on.  Less volume of course, but at least listenable. 

Any chance there is a joint that has opened up?

I don't think so, it's quite new. I looked at it and it seems ok. I am going to try to take it to someone to see if they can fix it. I will do that this week. Thanks again to everyone for their ideas.

One more thing, I was at a music festival this weekend and there was a guy from out of town with a big, long table of fiddles, and all of them were easy to play and sounded more or less ok. This leads me to believe that the shop where I bought my fiddle doesn't have any idea how to set instruments up properly. I may have to go on a fiddle buying trip.

Edited by - Antonio on 09/05/2012 09:53:43

wow!

Very informative thread!

I shall need to re-think my fiddles.

and then again, when I realize what I might have learned!

Thanks to all the thread participants.

rc

I would echo some of the others: before you go shopping for a new fiddle, first try some other strings. If you're wedded to synthetics, I would add Tonicas (especially with wound E) to your list--much nicer than Dominants.

Getting a proper set-up will do wonders for general playability as well as potentially have a positive impact on sound. I just had one on my 4 string and wish I had done so right when I bought the fiddle, though in my case it was more about action than it was a concern about tone.

Finally, I really think part of the issue is likely to be the differing technique that one (often unconsciously) uses when muted v unmuted, particularly if you're using a mute that really tamps down the sound. You get used to compensating for this, & then when the mute is off you're likely to have too heavy a hand, resulting in the sort of things that you describe. I realise that it may be difficult in a flat, but try putting in practise without the mute.

If neighbours are a problem, are there any other spaces that could be used for playing? There's a local practise space ($4/hour) that I sometimes use to test out various mic configurations in preparation for live performances: maybe having a similar low-cost, soundproofed, acoustically treated space will help you get over what appears to be a version of stage fright. By being afraid of 'disturbing the neighbours' you're not allowing yourself full freedom to play. Give yourself the permission to make mistakes, then seek to remedy them in full-throated fashion--that's how your tone and touch will improve.

And speaking of room acoustics, when you're test-driving an instrument in a shop, it's more likely that the space is contributing to good sound--get it home to a less acoustically treated room, and the environment may not be particularly nurturing of a good sound (especially in a flat).