I was continuing this discussion from the othr thread, but didn't know if anybody would find it there... anyway, this is an embarrassing video, but the only one I could find the time for... and I wish I could be practicing now, lol, but never time... I'm only writing this because I snuck away to make the coffee...lol... here's the pathetic, rushed attempt to conitnue bowing discussion... I'll take it off of youtube in a few days because it's pretty awful... but for the sake of discussion and with what time constraints I have, here it is: http://youtu.be/a_gltVh92Js

Not sure which discussion we're continuing but I recorded a bowing video over the weekend, so I'll contribute. Last Friday I had an hour of wait time, a laptop, and a fiddle so I recorded myself so I could take a look. 

I'd say the intonation leaves something to be desired and I wasn't trying to play in a particularly interesting way but I think the clip serves as a good example of a relatively new pattern bower playing in a no-pressure, spontaneous sort of situation.  

Edited by - ajisai on 08/27/2012 08:46:22

Good, good, good... thanks!!!  Anybody else?  It would be greeat if anybody else could have the time to sit and show-n-tell some bowing patterns and how individuals have come to, or are currently playing them and using them... I plan to take my youtube off, tighten the bow, rosin the bow, cut my nails, practice, wake up more, and feel like I can take more than 5 minutes and possibly get a much better youtube up than what I just hurridly did this morning.  But just to get the ball rolling, I thought I'd slap up whatever i could get for now... hopefully get some discussion and show-n-tell ... or maybe not...lol... either way, trust me, that horrible video ain't gonna last for long... it's terrible!  Gonna get that off of there soon.  Hopefully I can do a better one that makes more sense and doesn't send everybody to the ear specialist!

Thank you for taking the time to make that video, you were able to demonstrate those shuffles in a relaxed and understandable way.

Just my 2 cents:

The main thing that caught my attention was that, as you changed patterns, you changed the melody itself to match the pattern.  I.e., "Boiling Cabbage" has a very distinctive rhythm just from the melody itself, just resulting from where the long notes are located in time, compared to where the short notes are located.  And that rhythm that comes from the melody itself IS the Nashville shuffle rhythm.  In your examples, you just changed the length of the melody notes, to match each pattern ... nothing wrong with that, but it might inadvertently be making a connection between the bowing pattern and the melody rhythm in your mind that often doesn't need to exist.

It's important to recognize, I think, that the bowing pattern can be thought of completely separately from the rhythm imposed by the length of the melody notes themselves.  The lengths and positions of the melody notes DO impose some restrictions on what patterns will "fit", however, but there is usually still plenty of freedom and choice left to the fiddler ... not very much in "Boiling Cabbage", though.

You might want to try this:

1) first, mess around with the various patterns you want to learn JUST by bowing them on a single string, with no fingering at all.

2) Once item 1 is working pretty well, try to pick a tune that has ALL short notes (except that usually there will be at least one longer final note in each phrase).  Also, if possible, try to pick a tune that jumps around among different strings as little as possible.  If you can find such a tune, it will be ideal for trying to learn the various patterns, because, since it has no long notes anywhere, ANY pattern will "fit" ... the melody notes don't put ANY restrictions on the patterns.  Any time the PATTERN makes you use a longer bowstroke, you'll be slurring together two or more short notes on that stroke, not playing a longer melody note.

One other thing: I think the term "double shuffle" usually means what you called the "hokum shuffle" ... I think the two terms usually mean the same thing.  The double shuffle basically involves two notes of the same pitch, followed by a single higher-pitched note, then with a repeat of those three notes, with everything sawstroked ... no slurs.  What makes it so distinctive, and hard to learn initially, is that a sequence of three repeated notes doesn't "line up" evenly with the measures (which have 8 short notes), or with the beats.  Your other pattern used two repeated lower notes, followed by two repeated higher notes, then all that repeated.  That's easier, because it "lines up" with the measures and the beats, but it's less distinctive and less interesting.

GHPeggy,  Thanks so much for doing that video!!  I can somewhat play all of the patterns you used, but it hadn't actually occurred to me yet to intermingle them.  I usually use one pattern and then mix in sawstroking for the parts that the pattern don't fit.  So this gives me a whole new realm of options to explore.  Just another little step forward, I feel like I wouldn't be half as far along as I am, if it wasn't for you all and FHO!!

quote:

---

Originally posted by bandsmcnamar
 

... it hadn't actually occurred to me yet to intermingle them.  I usually use one pattern and then mix in sawstroking for the parts that the pattern don't fit.  So this gives me a whole new realm of options to explore.  

---

I think that's what I was trying to illustrate when I posted. I'm just beginning to explore patterns but it seems to me that they offer freedom rather than constraint. They're like vocabulary words that can be used to construct sentences that say whatever it is you're trying to communicate at a particular moment. In the hands of masters--well, just listen to Dan Gellert's Candy Girl. It's exquisite. Absolutely exquisite. 

http://oldtownschool.org/connect/fiddleclub/files/2009/03/candy-girl.mp3

Edited by - ajisai on 08/27/2012 13:36:53

Mike... I agree I did change the melody with the different bowings... not sure if I did it intentionally to stress the bowings and make sure I got them right (because they are new to me and I can't really play them) or if that just happened, but I do agree the melody notes have two choices: change with the bowing, or change regardless of which bowing, or keep 'em the same all the way through, again, with the bowing or else regardless of the bowing... just my opinion, but it seems that way to me.  But thanks for pointing out that I did that, because I didn't even know and if anybody might learn from that poor old video, they shoud be aware of that!

Another thing I did that I didn't realize was some little habit thing I've had since I picked up the fiddle a few years ago: I Nashville Shuffle in the downbow way, what they call it here, where you have to be oriented down, even though the shuffle is reversible... then I did this little habit thing at the end of the very first verse of Boil Em Cabbage Down, that I don't even realize I do sometimes... which set me upsidedown for the second verse, or mighta been the second half of the first verse, can't remember now and cookin supper ain't got the time to look at the video... but anyway, after I did that thing I was upsidedown with my Nashville shuffles until I got to the next ending point... which isn't that bad on N. Shuffle, but still, it does feel upsidedown when I do it.  I really did a bad job, but the best I could handle for now... thanks, everyone, for the highly undeserved compliments...I'm hoping to just get us going with better bowing discussions and hands-on examples!

Well, this has got me INTERESTED... I watched about HALFWAY, but I REALLY need to go do some bizniz at the DMV.  Your Smoothshuffle looks good!  Try doing just ONE, then continuing with Nashville, and maybe another Smoothshuffle on the end.

ajisai ,   

That is the same analogy I've used for years teaching banjo.  All the little licks and rolls etc for banjo, or for fiddle, bowing techniques, runs, slides and so on, are like words.  You got to learn the words before you can make sentences.  And you've got to learn and understand the sentences before you can write a novel.  That's why it very seldom works well for a banjo player's first song to be Foggy Mountain Breakdown, or a fiddler's first song to be OBS or Devil Went Down to Georgia, though almost every banjo student I've ever had, that was the song they wanted to play first. 

Anyway, just wanted to say great observation and I picked up some things I need to try and work on from your video too, very nice!!

quote:

---

Originally posted by ajisai

quote:

---

Originally posted by bandsmcnamar
 

... it hadn't actually occurred to me yet to intermingle them.  I usually use one pattern and then mix in sawstroking for the parts that the pattern don't fit.  So this gives me a whole new realm of options to explore.  

---

I think that's what I was trying to illustrate when I posted. I'm just beginning to explore patterns but it seems to me that they offer freedom rather than constraint. They're like vocabulary words that can be used to construct sentences that say whatever it is you're trying to communicate at a particular moment. In the hands of masters--well, just listen to Dan Gellert's Candy Girl. It's exquisite. Absolutely exquisite. 

http://oldtownschool.org/connect/fiddleclub/files/2009/03/candy-girl.mp3

---

Freedom rather than constraint- EGG-ZACKLY!!!

And yes, very much like the freedom to combine words in nearly infinite different combinations to say stuff.

quote:

---

Originally posted by bandsmcnamar

ajisai ,   

That is the same analogy I've used for years teaching banjo.  All the little licks and rolls etc for banjo, or for fiddle, bowing techniques, runs, slides and so on, are like words.  You got to learn the words before you can make sentences.  And you've got to learn and understand the sentences before you can write a novel.  That's why it very seldom works well for a banjo player's first song to be Foggy Mountain Breakdown, or a fiddler's first song to be OBS or Devil Went Down to Georgia, though almost every banjo student I've ever had, that was the song they wanted to play first. 

Anyway, just wanted to say great observation and I picked up some things I need to try and work on from your video too, very nice!!

---

I only made a start on Bluegrass Banjo, but I had noticed the way Scruggs-style players talk about their rolls is very much the way I think about patterns.  So much so that I'm thinking maybe I ought to take up where I left off on Bluegrass Banjo!!!

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

Well, this has got me INTERESTED... I watched about HALFWAY, but I REALLY need to go do some bizniz at the DMV.  Your Smoothshuffle looks good!  Try doing just ONE, then continuing with Nashville, and maybe another Smoothshuffle on the end.

---

I spoke too soon...I'm  watching to the end... now that I have time, and you ARE recombining them!

And throwing in Double Shuffle to boot!  Kewl!

For someone who had just woke up, I think you did a GREAT JOB!

Please post a video Mr. Pogo. We can attach them some how to your book!

Yes, I've always wanted Pogo to make us a video!

I think this newly-posted lesson video from davidbragger fits the discussion nicely. 

It reminds me of how much easier it feels when I'm learning a new tune to think about (and remember) bowing options using named patterns rather than trying to remember what I want to do note by note.

If you watch the video, be on the look out for the Georgia that he includes in the tune. The approach that he talks about (with the two-note slur) was a real eye-opener for me.

David Bragger's fiddling is really good stuff! In one of his videos a couple of years ago he got me finally seeing what that doggone elusive synco-shuffle/Tommy's lick is ... Besides all the many explanations here to reinforce the idea. I can limp through a synco shuffle now, but not sure I'll ever really get the idea of it, the feel of it, r really find it useful to me...but as Pogo suggests from time to time...I'm keeping it on the back burner in case the day evr comes when I really see how and where I (not somebody else) would need it. David is very generous in teaching tunes. I have trouble getting the ups and dwns, myself...but I do like being able to see licks and shuffles pulled apart. To put them in pulled apart with somebody saying ups and dwns, though, lol...I just can't do it. I've heard Brad Leftwich does the same, even though he started doing it with sentences...still I don't think I can see them that way either. Wht seems to sink in best for me is to just see the feel f the whole shuffle ( why the parsing here is so difficult fr me too)... Just the whole shuffle, and what it can sound like in a tune. Still, then for me...it's gonna take me some time away from the fiddle and with the fiddle to get that to sink in and finally become music I can play. Is this why they say it takes forever to learn to play the fiddle???

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

quote:

---

Originally posted by ajisai

quote:

---

Originally posted by bandsmcnamar
 

... it hadn't actually occurred to me yet to intermingle them.  I usually use one pattern and then mix in sawstroking for the parts that the pattern don't fit.  So this gives me a whole new realm of options to explore.  

---

I think that's what I was trying to illustrate when I posted. I'm just beginning to explore patterns but it seems to me that they offer freedom rather than constraint. They're like vocabulary words that can be used to construct sentences that say whatever it is you're trying to communicate at a particular moment. In the hands of masters--well, just listen to Dan Gellert's Candy Girl. It's exquisite. Absolutely exquisite. 

http://oldtownschool.org/connect/fiddleclub/files/2009/03/candy-girl.mp3

---

Freedom rather than constraint- EGG-ZACKLY!!!

And yes, very much like the freedom to combine words in nearly infinite different combinations to say stuff.

---

But also like knowing only one language.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Larry Rutledge

Please post a video Mr. Pogo. We can attach them some how to your book!

---

Well, I would need a video CAMERA first.  Seems like new strings, rosin, etc. always get priority.

But, groundhogpeggy is doing a great job!

quote:

---

Originally posted by IdleHands

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

quote:

---

Originally posted by ajisai

quote:

---

Originally posted by bandsmcnamar
 

... it hadn't actually occurred to me yet to intermingle them.  I usually use one pattern and then mix in sawstroking for the parts that the pattern don't fit.  So this gives me a whole new realm of options to explore.  

---

I think that's what I was trying to illustrate when I posted. I'm just beginning to explore patterns but it seems to me that they offer freedom rather than constraint. They're like vocabulary words that can be used to construct sentences that say whatever it is you're trying to communicate at a particular moment. In the hands of masters--well, just listen to Dan Gellert's Candy Girl. It's exquisite. Absolutely exquisite. 

http://oldtownschool.org/connect/fiddleclub/files/2009/03/candy-girl.mp3

---

Freedom rather than constraint- EGG-ZACKLY!!!

And yes, very much like the freedom to combine words in nearly infinite different combinations to say stuff.

---

But also like knowing only one language.

---

????????

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

quote:

---

Originally posted by Larry Rutledge

Please post a video Mr. Pogo. We can attach them some how to your book!

---

Well, I would need a video CAMERA first.  Seems like new strings, rosin, etc. always get priority.

But, groundhogpeggy is doing a great job!

---

There's probably one in your phone.  This is a copout.  And I challege you to a five tune fiddle duel, you can pick all the tunes!  Let's go!

quote:

---

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

Yes, I've always wanted Pogo to make us a video!

---

There's really not much more for me to add!!!

Except.... "Offset Nashville" is just taking the first half of Syncoshuffle, and then following it with ITS mirror image, just like the second half of Nashville is the mirror image of the first.

It's maybe a little challenging, since the motions are very similar to Nashville, but done in the "wrong" relation to the measure, if you are very used to Nashville.

It helped me to focus on the rhythmic flavor that Offset Nashville is so good for: BOUNCE.  Really good for playing a tune slow and bouncy.

Oh yeah... Sawshuffle.  Since you have Smoothshuffle, now just replace the first slur with 3 single strokes (down, up, down), leaving the upstroke 3 note slur in the middle, and finishing off the same way with the two single strokes (down, up).

If you can do Smoothshuffle, Sawshuffle is a proverbial "piece of cake".

I was gonna ask about saw shuffle! Thanks! Now, as to that Hokum Bow...is that something new? I think it's very hard and I'm not sure I even like it enough to try to learn it...then the same with Georgia Bow...I liked it in the David Bragger video above, but mostly I've heard it done jerky and not to crazy about it. If I had the time I'd learn em all, but I get about 15 minutes a month on the fiddle now...just barely keeping up with the virtual fiddle festival!

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

quote:

---

Originally posted by IdleHands

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

quote:

---

Originally posted by ajisai

quote:

---

Originally posted by bandsmcnamar
 

... it hadn't actually occurred to me yet to intermingle them.  I usually use one pattern and then mix in sawstroking for the parts that the pattern don't fit.  So this gives me a whole new realm of options to explore.  

---

I think that's what I was trying to illustrate when I posted. I'm just beginning to explore patterns but it seems to me that they offer freedom rather than constraint. They're like vocabulary words that can be used to construct sentences that say whatever it is you're trying to communicate at a particular moment. In the hands of masters--well, just listen to Dan Gellert's Candy Girl. It's exquisite. Absolutely exquisite. 

http://oldtownschool.org/connect/fiddleclub/files/2009/03/candy-girl.mp3

---

Freedom rather than constraint- EGG-ZACKLY!!!

And yes, very much like the freedom to combine words in nearly infinite different combinations to say stuff.

---

But also like knowing only one language.

---

????????

---

...............

quote:

---

Originally posted by IdleHands

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

quote:

---

Originally posted by Larry Rutledge

Please post a video Mr. Pogo. We can attach them some how to your book!

---

Well, I would need a video CAMERA first.  Seems like new strings, rosin, etc. always get priority.

But, groundhogpeggy is doing a great job!

---

There's probably one in your phone.  This is a copout.  And I challege you to a five tune fiddle duel, you can pick all the tunes!  Let's go!

---

Duel, shmuel....

What are you, a long-lost descendant of Aaron Burr???

You are assuming a cop-out where there is none.

I have a Tracphone.  It's an old semi-smart, semi-crippled Motorola.  Cheep!!!!

I can take photos, but I have to E-MAIL them to myself.... so I use up minutes! If it can even DO video, the cost of e-mailing those would be prohibitive.

http://modmymobile.com/forums/395-general-p2k/560354-w375-flashing-tips-something.html

Note how enthusiastic the poster is about its capabilities, and the deafening response to his pleas for help in upgrading it!!!

This was my first cell-phone, and I'm keeping it till it dies or is permanently lost. I'm absent minded enough that having a totally expendable cell phone is a REALLY GOOD IDEA!!!

I have a camera that can SORT of take videos... a Samsung Digimax 101.  A visiting relative gave it to me during his trip here to California in about 2004, because he had upgraded to a better camera , so it is likewise CHALLENGED... it was challenged in 2004, let alone now.  And it doesn't do sound with the video, so, what's the point of even bothering for a bowing video?

And my "cameras" are very much in keeping with:

Car: 1987 Toyota Camry

D-18 copy guitar- $250 Walden

Banjer: $185 Hohner Travel Banjo

And 3 Knilling 4KF Bucharest models "The high end of student rental fiddles!"

quote:

---

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

I was gonna ask about saw shuffle! Thanks! Now, as to that Hokum Bow...is that something new? I think it's very hard and I'm not sure I even like it enough to try to learn it...then the same with Georgia Bow...I liked it in the David Bragger video above, but mostly I've heard it done jerky and not to crazy about it. If I had the time I'd learn em all, but I get about 15 minutes a month on the fiddle now...just barely keeping up with the virtual fiddle festival!

---

I'm not really the one to ask about Double Shuffle/Hokum Bow.  I had always thought they were two words for the same thing, but you do make them sound different.  When you do the first, it sounds more like my attempts at it, but I don't attempt it much.  It's a piece of cake for me to learn something with a melody by ear, but I have a hard time remembering arpeggio parts, which is what they are used for. And I'm not sure I like the more complicated version of it enough to learn it, either!

BTW, what you call "Hard Nashville" sounds to me like something a Bluegrass fiddler or a Nashville studio fiddler might use.  There's probably an Old Time fiddler or two that uses it, but to me, it's a flashier, showier technique.