Hi everyone,

I am about ready for a violin upgrade. This will by my third violin.

I love old violins. Who doesn't. In addition to their wonderful sound and patina they are great conversation pieces!

But fully-operational, nice quality, working, ready-to-play ones are so hard to find. And when you do find them, they are so expensive. And they're just "iffy" anyway, if you cannot play them and check them out before you buy. I have to find a violin over the 'net because our nearest music shop shut down and they didn't have but 4 violins anyway.

Trust me. I'm a fool for anything that says "made in the 1890's." Makes me think of Sherlock Holmes and his violin.

75% of what I find when I key in "old violin" on eBay are broken, cracked, extensive repair violins. I'd love to give one some love but I don't have time right now. The other 25% are $2,500 and upwards. I'm looking more in the $200 or less (less preferably) range.

So, I dropped the "old" and went for "violin". Lots of results, from made-in-china-factories to more brokens to one that said "a steal at $10,000."

But there was one seller that appealed to me. They were advertising lots of violins that they made. They are a corporation of luthiers from all over the eastern hemisphere who make violins on a small-scale in China, one luthier from start to finish, choice woods, professional quality, whatnot. They had great feedback so I looked in...

They have some really beautiful, nice-looking, nicely described instruments. Good reviews. And best of all, they price their instruments very reasonably, $50 to $200 on many instruments. Any more and it is probably deserving, their instruments are so beautiful.

I'm really taking consideration into buying one from them. But they said, specifically, "these are new violins. They do not have the tone of old instruments."

It worried me. I like old ones. So does everybody else. But the idea of taking a very well made instrument and growing with it was nice. But still...

What should I do? Search for an old one or just buy a good new one?

And this too- how old does a violin have to be before the sound starts maturing?

Thanks

did you look at the violins in our FHO classifieds or the Kennedy violins or Elderly, kennedy lets you try them out to see if you like them or not

did you look at Ricard brunnel G2 out fits by kennedy violins this one cost$256 roughly

You can't and won't get a professional quality violin for two hundred dollars unless you trip over something someone has and are not aware of it's actual value .
I'll leave the moral implications in this to you.
Old or new dosn't matter....... Tone ... Playability... Condition ...... can what is wrong be repaired with out breaking the bank .... is it properly set up the way you like... Do you need a better bow before you get another fiddle and this is a n entirely new question ... does it come with a good bow and a working case.... I've bought a few violins on Ebay ... two of them are fairly nice...... by the time I got them set up and ready to go I had six hundered dollars in them .. .. .. So my best advice at this point is to save more money and shop the internet for an educatiuon in what is available and what repairs and set ups cost etc. and you might find your dream fiddle. But you can't be in a hurry.
On you Ebay search Violin .... priced highest to lowest inclued description ...... It will be a bunch of pages ... but you can skip whatever you want till you get near what you want to spend. Another search is by model type Stradivarius Stradivari Guarnerius Guarneri Amati Hopf Stainer or builders from the German period Kreusler Koschat and the list goes on............ Really Take your time ........

UsuallyPickin, thanks for the advice but you didn't answer my question. I am not looking for a professional instrument, I am not a professional, I am just looking for a more advanced one. I am sure I can find what I want, I just need help figuring what it is I need.

I need a better violin soon, I cannot continue to play semi-publicaly on this one I have now. Besides, I would not trust myself with even a $500 violin. Too many things that could go wrong for all that. I don't know about you but to me that is quite an investment. I am not looking for a Stradivarius, just something that'll do me at least for a while.

There is no answer to your question. There are good and bad old violins and good and bad new ones. If you like old ones then that's what you should look for. There have been many discussions here about Chinese ebay violins, which you can find with the search function. You didn't say who the ebay seller is that appeals to you - you might get more specific advice if you did. I think Rich gave you some good advice about places to look.

Edited by - DougD on 08/19/2012 10:55:03

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Originally posted by Freischutz

I am sure I can find what I want, I just need help figuring what it is I need.

 

...I would not trust myself with even a $500 violin. Too many things that could go wrong for all that. I don't know about you but to me that is quite an investment.

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 First statement above is rather confusing.  I'd say what you need is a violin that will make you happy-- isn't that what you want??

Second statement, yes, $500 is considerable money but still insignificant considering the prospect of getting a violin you like and can play for the rest of your life.  As is said many times on this forum, the only sure way to be happy is to play before you buy, unless the seller has a good return policy.  Of course, return shipping can add up if trying several violins, but still better than dropping $200 on one you don't like.

In the end, it depends on how high you standards are, what sound will make you happy.  Nobody can know that but you.  To stay on a small budget, read all you can about the sound qualities of various brands, then pick one that seems to fit you.  For example, Gliga's have a reputation of being warm sounding.  Scott Cao's are popular in this price range.  I have a Palatino VN-850 that I think sounds pretty good.  But my requirements may be much lower than yours.  Some people have a $2000 violin and are wishing for an upgrade.

Bye the way, Sharmusic.com has what they say is the best violin available for $500 guaranteed, and they will pay shipping both ways if you don't agree.

Good luck in your search.

I knew a guy who didn't work. His "vocation" was to go to estate auctions and buy fiddles, any condition. Some of them needed lots of work. I rebuilt many of them for him just for the experience.  A wise violin maker told me 25 years or more ago "I didn't even know what a real violin was until I passed a large number of them through my hands" well God must have been listening because that is just what happened. One thing it made me appreciate is old wood. Something happens to wood that enhances its musical utility. It has been referred to as amberization, where the resins become hardened and the sound speeds through the fibers differently than when the wood is felled recently (50 or less years?). Perhaps it is so that  early 20th century European factory fiddles that would be the equivalent of a Chinese Factory fiddle today (which aren't hardly worth anything) can be re-carved into a powerful instrument due to the aged wood alone. There is my two cents go for age if you can.

Freischutz Unless your creteria are very different from mine how " nice looking" a violin is has little to do with what a violin does and is...... And an advertisment is just that words relating to the sale of an object.... I realize that 200.00$ can be a lot of money ... but unless the value of the dollar goes radically up it is not a lot of money for a violin, or even a violin bow for that matter. With instruments being handmade or even machine cut and hand assembled every single one of them is going to be slightly different. Add to that different strings bow weights and styles and the differences become multiplicative .... ad infinitum....... I realize you want a definitive response like " Buy a Gliga GAMA model Guanerius and you will really love it" . You "may" really love it........ you may not. THere is ni single or simple answer to your question. What violin do you have now? Are you getting all the tone and music out of it that can be had with a good setup and a quality student bow? Have you handed your fiddle to another Fiddler to see what they can get out of it. Good Luck in your search.....

No, my violin right now is not giving me the best it could, but there is not a luthier around here for at least 50-75 miles, that could give me a setup. Nearest music store just closed down. As for how my violin sounds in the hands of another fiddler? Well, not another fiddler around her for miles either, but I can get an idea. Doug D has reproached me of it before because it has been refinished, so no, I doubt you guys would think it worth much more than a Chinese factory violin.

It really scares me sometimes that I do not live anywhere close to a luthier, but I can't move just for violins. Even if there was a luthier I cannot be dropping $300 every month to get my fiddle fixed, rearranged. We are not rich people, and I sincerely hope I'm not told because of this "well you shouldn't play violin, then".

I am just looking for an upgrade. The sound and playability of course is first and foremost, if it wasn't I wouldn't be looking for a new violin, but I do like "nice-looking" ones. You can tell that the luthier knew what he was doing when he chose the correct wood, varnished it, he has experience, cares about how his violins look and appeal to buyers. It says at least something, I think. My standards are not too high, I just want a good violin to grow on for a while or a long time. Sure, I could rip $1000 on a really good one and be set for life, but I don't want to have the feeling that if I do something wrong I'm in terrible, horrifying trouble, or I'm stuck with it forever because the value may go down. In a few years I'll be driving, I have to be conservative.

Why do some of you seem so uptight about this? I am just a young player looking for advice, do I have to be scolded because I am uninformed?

Really good wood seems to be harder and harder go get. I don't see new fiddles under $1500 that have really good looking grain in the wood, especially the necks. If you want to get more fiddle for your money, join a fiddler association and start going to jams. Make the members aware of what you are looking for. Have the better fiddlers help you evaluate the quality of fiddles before you purchase them. I may take some time to find the right deal for you. You could end up with a really good sounding fiddle for somewhere between $150 - $300. Members of these fiddler associations often take pity on new fiddlers and try to help them out. Heck, I recently gave a decent fiddle to an association in Topeka KS that provides fiddles to players who need help. Where I live, you can't sell fiddles for what they are worth. So, I donated the fiddle and I am getting a tax deduction from the organization.

Be patient and good luck.

Try calling or e-mailing some shops and see what they can send you by mail to try. Most reputable places will do a trial period so you can play the instrument before you commit, and you can try several instruments and send back whichever ones you don't want.The places that advertise on fiddle hangout would be a good start. Plus, something from a reputable shop is more likely to be properly set up, and won't need a separate trip to a luthier to sound its best, which can make up for paying a slight premium over discount e-bay prices.

I wouldn't go with e-bay for a fiddle. You just don't know what you're getting if you can't hear it, and the fact that the seller says "nice sound" is not enough for me to be convinced . You probably won't get burned with a chinese e-bay instrument if you do your research (and it sounds like you have), but you have no way to compare which of the instruments you are considering actually sounds best to you.  If you want something you'll be happy with for years, play before purchasing is my suggestion.

You could also look into mailing your current instrument to a luthier to get a better setup so that you can have your current instrument sounding its best before you start comparing it to others.

Good luck finding a great fiddle.

I don't think people are being uptight. You asked for advice, and I think you've gotten some very good responses. However, if you think you can get a really nice violin on ebay for $50 -200 you're probably dreaming. BTW, there is no reason to spend $300 every month to get a fiddle "fixed, rearranged." A good setup should last a long time, maybe years, and if you take care of it it may not need fixing for a long time either.

Visit a shop that has instruments.  Talk your folks into a daytrip........or buy online.   A large shop like Shar (I get their catalog) has instruments in your price range,  and they do set-ups.

One thing you shouldn't do,  is ask advice from the folks on this forum,  and then get indignant when they answer you with well thought out responses.  Games like that are usually played by much older folks than a young teen-age girl.

Well, it may be a touch higher than 200 but if you also sell the one you have now and can add a bit more you can get into a Bluestem fiddle from Michael at KCFiddles.com.  I have one and really like it.  Mine came with bow and case for 400.  I believe they may be less without the complete package.  I remember seeing some on the website in the 300's.  You would get a real nice fiddle for the price with a great set-up.

Take a look.  He also has the "Liberty" model which is less.  You might talk to him about it.  He is known as Woodwiz on this forum.

Edited by - Andah1andah2 on 08/19/2012 17:45:40

Freischutz.

There's a thread on repair prices here somewhere.  If you look at the repair prices and consider that some of that has to be done to get an older instrument working nicely you can see why it's hard to find one that is nice for a low price.  Really, $200 will buy very little work.  Now $2000 will get one into some rather nice older instruments!  But even then it's possible to get a dud.

Where are you?  You'd probably like finding a member here who would show you what goes into an instrument.  I'm in east TN and should be able to receive visitors again in a couple of weeks.  Short still getting put together.

Well, from a a strictly fiscal perspective, now is a great time to buy a new one.  It's close to Fall, so a lot of businesses are doing "Back to School" specials.  I would just wait a week or two and see what kind of deals pop up.  You may be able to get more "bang for your buck."

Well Bailey, here's my two cents worth.

You need a nice-sounding/playable fiddle, and you need to find one quickly.  The two best options are to buy on-line from a reputable dealer like Shar, or visit a luthier.  Any other options will be hit-or-miss, and potentially give you one big headache (well, two actually...you could end up with an instrument you don't really like, plus be out some money as well).

Of the two options from above, I would take a day trip and visit K C Fiddles.  From what I gather, you live somewhere in western Mo, and their shop should only be a couple hours away, tops.  Check out their web site (kcfiddles.com).  They specialize in fiddles,and have a wide assortment from which to choose for every skill level.

Now, the reasons I would opt this route:  one-day in-and-out, BAM, done deal..  Try out as many as possible in your price range, find the one you like best...it's a done deal.  Two, they may accept your current fiddle as a trade in...even if not much, something is better than nothing, right?  Three:  Personalized, professional service...they will steer you in the right direction right off the bat, and your instrument will be professionally set up, ready to play.  They will listen to your needs, your budget, and factor all this in.  And waste very little of your time in the process.  Lastly, if you don't need a case, or bow, etc. it could decrease the purchase price...at the very least, they could "negotiate" with you (perhaps), certainly more so than if you bought from Shar on-line.

I'm sure that whatever you decide on there will-be trade offs...you won't get "everything" you want this time around.  You WILL get a nice-sounding fiddle that is playable, and in your price range.  You WON'T feel like you "settled" for something in a rush, or (worse even), you won't get burned.  Good luck Bailey!

quote:

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Originally posted by Andah1andah2

Well, it may be a touch higher than 200 but if you also sell the one you have now and can add a bit more you can get into a Bluestem fiddle from Michael at KCFiddles.com.  I have one and really like it.  Mine came with bow and case for 400.  I believe they may be less without the complete package.  I remember seeing some on the website in the 300's.  You would get a real nice fiddle for the price with a great set-up.

Take a look.  He also has the "Liberty" model which is less.  You might talk to him about it.  He is known as Woodwiz on this forum.

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I was thinking about the same thing- you're in Missouri, chances are you're not TOO far from Kansas City.  Perhaps it's NOT the kind of drive that's doable every day.  But it might be doable as a special family outing, if your parents are VERY NICE and VERY supportive of your music.  I think you really need to just ignore the old vs. new thing, and go to a shop that has lots of fiddles and bows, and play the ones in your price range until you find one that helps you play at a higher level.  It could be old, it could be shiny new.  It doesn't matter.  What does matter is the the old ones in a shop like KC Fiddles/KC Violins will have been gone through so that they are VERY probably as problem free as the new ones.

And the good selection matters- that increases your chance of finding "the one" that's going to help you make more progress because the tone and responsiveness encourages you to play your best and play MORE!

You didn't give the link to the site for Chinese violins you mentioned, but two Chinese companies that get mentioned as being fairly high quality for the price are Song Violins and Yita Music.

Another possibility.

NORMALLY, I wouldn't trust a new violin in the $200 to $300 range, but Kennedy Violins in Oregon is a reputable shop, and their Ricard Bunnel models start at about $200, and a lot of people seem to like them.  The problem is, without you getting to TRY it first, you don't know if it's REALLY that much more inspiring than what you have now.

I can relate to your situation... your price range is about the same as MY price range!  But it's true what they're saying.... $200 to $500 normally doesn't buy you that much in violins unless you get LUCKY.  Or buy used.  Or both.

These are some Fiddle Hangout reviews for Cremona violins:

http://www.fiddlehangout.com/w/reviews/browse/m/t/v/620/

The most likely place to find a used violin is through your local Craigslist.  Craigslist has some SERIOUS drawbacks compared to buying from a shop.  One is PERSONAL SAFETY- don't go to someone's house from a Craigslist ad- have your dad with you and best to meet in a public place like a Wal-Mart parking lot or a park in a good section of town where you could try the violin out.  Secondly, you'll have to weed through a lot of 3/4 violins and bottom-end Chinese VSO's just to find something halfway decent.

The other drawback is you only get to try out one violin at a time, and if you don't want it, you are disappointing someone who may be pretty desperate to make a sale.

This is a Craiglist ad in Springfield, MO, for a Cremona SV-220- it's not the same model as the two highest numbered models in the reviews, but it's closest to the SV-225, so it's probably very similar in quality.

http://springfield.craigslist.org/msg/3151697103.html

Note that the seller includes "OBO" and shows some desperation.  This is the kind you would find from someone who's son or daughter WAS taking violin lessons, but lost interest.  The idea is that in this situation, the violin will be fairly CLOSE to new condition as far as structural soundness, but you let the first owner take the loss of buying it new.

To me this has the look of what might be a good violin for you- notice the top isn't TOO shiny, and the back has some figuring, and more importantly, the finish isn't so thick that it covers up the figuring. The case and bow are also a little bit above the bottom of the line. (by bottom of the line bow, I'm referring to the bottom end Glasser bows with rubber-grips and plastic frogs- for the bottom end case, see the following:)  I'm not saying you should buy this violin- I don't know what area of MO you live in- AND YOU SHOULDN'T TELL US!  But it's the kind you could/should look for in your local Craigslist.

These are pretty typical of cheap Chinese violins to be avoided:

http://springfield.craigslist.org/msg/3212365038.html

http://springfield.craigslist.org/msg/3156145208.html

This is the same kind you should avoid, but the seller is the MOST HONEST SELLER of such a violin I HAVE EVER SEEN- tells it like it is! :

http://springfield.craigslist.org/msg/3187687781.html

The reason I'm linking to these is to show you the kind you should NOT EVEN GO TO THE BOTHER OF GOING TO LOOK AT!

Notice they all have the same kind of case that's typical of the bottom end Chinese violins.  Nothing wrong with the case, per se... just a sign the the violin in it is probably a VSO (violin shaped object)  If a violin is around $100, VERY LIKELY it's one of these... if it's $200... you need to look to MAKE SURE it's not one of these!  If it's $200 to $300, it COULD be something that would have been a lot more new, but the seller needs the money. 

Edited by - fiddlepogo on 08/20/2012 13:49:54

Lots of info on choosing a new student violin right here:

http://beststudentviolins.com/violins.html

...but, I'm sure you already seen these pages....just a hunch.

Thanks for the kind words, all. Been kinda busy lately. 

Freischutz, if you can get up to KC (2 hour drive) you can try out something like 500 fiddles and violins, between my shop and K C Strings. K C strings sells everything from entry level student violins, up through world class soloist instruments by Anton Krutz. K C Fiddles sells fiddles for everyone from beginners to Nashville professionals. We both have new and old instruments, so you can compare for yourself.

There are good people in St. Louis, as well, and Field Violins in Jeff City. I think there are more luthiers in the Little Dixie area, but I don't have contact info.  I was just in Sedalia at the fiddle contest yesterday, but I wasn't on line, & didn't think to ask.

If you buy sight unseen, you don't know what you are getting, plus you don't know what kind of setup you'll get. Setup is critical.  Every violin / fiddle is different, even the same model by the same maker. I deliberately set up different instruments in the same price range differently, because different people want different sounds and playing characteristics.

An alternative would be to listen carefully to you, to understand what you are looking for, pick an instrument and send it to you on approval, to play for a week.  To me, that's second best, even though about 80 to 90% of what I send out stays sold. You are going to be spending a lot of time with your instrument, and if you have the opportunity to play a lot of them before choosing, you would do well to take it.

As far as maintenance goes, it's good to have your fiddle looked over a couple of times a year, but apart from having the sound post adjusted or replaced after 6 months to a year, you shouldn't have any maintenance issues with a new instrument or a sound, older instrument.

Edited by - KCFiddles on 08/20/2012 15:18:43

I wouldn't mind at all getting a used violin. Would rather like it, actually. They're "more experienced", even if not that old. If it's an old beater but still sounds/plays good I'll take it.

Fiddlepogo, thanks so much for the info on the Kansas City shops and all but my mom would laugh me out of the house if I asked if she would drive me to Kansas City to look at violins. No other people in my family are musicians or understand the importance of a good instrument. Anything over 10-20 miles away- nope. Tried it. "Gas is too much." We live in a pretty rural place. Nearest shop just closed down.

Thanks for the advice on Craigslist fiddles, though. I've looked there before but either they are the cheap Chinese or somebody thinks they've really got something and mark $8,000 for an old beat up piece of junk. Just because it's old doesn't mean it's a Strad...

I'll keep looking. Thanks

Here is the web address for the Chinese luthier-made violins I was looking at. Tell me what you think. Cheapish? Okay? Good? Of course you can't tell until you hear but it sounds like they get pretty good feedback for their instruments. Some are rather expensive. Magnificent curly maple, most of them have.

(I know that is annoying, me going on about how beautiful they are, but they are! Absolutely gorgeous wood.)

http://stores.ebay.com/old-violin-house 

Woodwiz, your shop sounds amazing. Man, wish I could get up to KC... even just St. Louis. Live about 100 miles from there.

Edited by - Freischutz on 08/20/2012 20:08:10

I've had better luck with older fiddles, if you want to pay in the 3K+ new range you can find something that sounds real nice. But I've seen pretty run of the mill older fiddles that don't cost an arm and a leg that has a tone that rivals that of a new fiddle in the thousands of dollars range.

i've stopped distinguishing them.  I've had stunning sounding new and hideous old and everything in between!  I have one now, pre-War German, may need to pop the top.  Beautiful instrument.  Has a bass bar about 2 x the size it should!!!