I just had my first fiddle lesson and one of the main things my instructor talked about was having a loose wrist for your bow hand. He gave me a couple of exercises to do to obtain muscle memory. his example was like making tiny circles by dropping your wrist at the end of your down bow stroke. Also scrunching the bow grip back and forth to get the fingers use to moving.This will take some time for me to accomplish but I can see the importance of doing this. Are there any other techniques to help with this ?

Dave

A couple of things someone taught me was you can lean up against a door frame with your shoulder up against so you are mostly using your wrist. 

You can also hold your bow over the strings, using the bow grip that  you were taught by your instructor, open and close your fingers and it moves your wrist only loosing it up. (Hard to explain unless seen, but you might understand what I saying)

I need to practice this, too! I've focused so much on vibrato lately that my bowing hand has been neglected...

The wrist flexes more naturally up and down (in a waving good-bye motion) than side to side.

There is a change in the grip you can do to bring the more natural way of flexing the wrist into play.

It involves getting the fingertip of the ring finger up on the stick so it's not draped over the stick.

This changes the angle of the knuckles so they are no longer parallel with the stick.  This allows more natural wrist flex to happen.

Old, old topic. I'm sure a loose wrist helps, but I play (some might argue that) with no wrist at all. And I'm not the first.

loose wrist is very important. try doing a triplet with a tight one. But a newbee should not worry about it. it just comes with playing. If you're bowing straight with a full bow, you must bend the wrist.  I had a teacher give me a good exercise.  sort of a squid shape moving up and a crab shape coming back down. Just as important is loose and flexible fingers. Pencil climbing is good for that. check out some videos and you'll find plenty of excercises.

Two great fiddlers, one bluegrass one old time, both have tight wrists.  Byron Berline and Jerry Correll both have tight wrists and sound good.  Jerry has hardware in his from a war injury in Vietnam, Byron just has a tight wrist.  Just do it, but it is easier with a looser wrist, I can attest to that.

The word "loose" has to be kept in perspective.  There's got to be a little bit of spring in it.  "Supple" is a better word.  When I visualize bowing, I recall some anonymous advice that suggested tugging the bow, not pushing or pulling it.  That's on the upbow as well as the downbow.  It works well with a supple wrist.  It lets you initiate the tone differently from how you then sustain the tone.  It lets you quickly and subtly vary bow pressure.  It helps you change bow speed for dynamic effects.  It compensates for the movement of your forearm and keeps the bow perpendicular to the strings.  If you're bowing with your shoulder, any wrist movement will be strained, not easy and smooth.

If your instructor has given you some exercises, that's great.  That bow is way harder to learn than most of the left hand stuff.  I'm constantly finding that I can do new things with my bow.  It just took some years to learn them.  The trick is to get tone most of the time.  Then more of the time.  Then maybe just about all of the time.    A presenter at a workshop once said that you can screw up with your left hand and maybe nobody will notice if your bowing stays on track, but if you screw up with the bow, everybody notices.

Are you playing by ear or by sheet music?  I've found that better bowing comes quicker from learning by ear.  Know your tune.  Bowing drives the rhythm of the tune.  Listen to your tune and clap the time out to it.  That's what the bow has to do. 

If you can decipher the bowing pattern discussions on FHO, more power to ya.  Me, I can barely follow them, if at all, but I've learned a bit when shown.  I am trainable in the rudiments.  Your instructor may have help there.  Don't rush it.  You'll get it, but it takes some time. 

I was instructed to try to do most of the bowing in the upper 6" of the bow, with the arm extended.  This forces you to use your wrist.  Probably like putting your shoulder against the door jamb.  Obviously, use more of the bow when needed.  This has helped me.

The loose (flexible, not tense) wrist is primarily to keep your bow parallel to the bridge from frog to tip. (yes, I know its other virtues but for beginners) If you bow with a stiff wrist your bow tip will wander left and right like a windshield wiper when you bow. The best exercise or technique is to stand with your bow arm against a wall to limit its movement and to "force" you to bend your wrist at the tip and frog points in your bowing. Your bow grip will contribute to the problem or make it easier so experiments with more of a top grip (top of your hand more towards you) rather than a side (like in the pictures) grip. Finger looseness also aids in this technique. Your wrist should lead the movement with the fingers following. At the frog end of the bow your hand should resemble a prayin mantis posistion and at the tip end your hand should be pushing away from you creating a triangle shape with the bow, your arm and the violin as equal sides. The elbow is the major long bowing pivot point, the wrist is for quick short bowings and string changes as you advance. The Shoulder is your crane elevator to raise or lower the appendage to the right angle for each string. Best way I have to describe it.

Edited by - p1cklef1sh on 08/10/2012 06:24:36

One aspect of a loose wrist that I've only realized in the last year or two is this:

It REALLY helps in playing fast!

The shortest notes in a fiddle tune are going to be an unaccented single stroke.

IF there is some wrist/thumb/finger flex going on, once you get above a certain speed, these can be executed with just a flick of the wrist, no arm motion at all, which will make them VERY short and VERY fast.  You can only go as fast as you can make your shortest notes short. Everything else is a bit longer and hence easier to do, but the length and speed of execution of your short notes will act as a limiter on your top speed, because everything else has to be in proportion to those shortest notes.  And short unaccented notes are much harder to do quickly with large arm motions.

quote:

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Originally posted by fiddlepogo

One aspect of a loose wrist that I've only realized in the last year or two is this:

It REALLY helps in playing fast!

The shortest notes in a fiddle tune are going to be an unaccented single stroke.

IF there is some wrist/thumb/finger flex going on, once you get above a certain speed, these can be executed with just a flick of the wrist, no arm motion at all, which will make them VERY short and VERY fast.  You can only go as fast as you can make your shortest notes short. Everything else is a bit longer and hence easier to do, but the length and speed of execution of your short notes will act as a limiter on your top speed, because everything else has to be in proportion to those shortest notes.  And short unaccented notes are much harder to do quickly with large arm motions.

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 ...all very good points.

And you might want to consider how much strength and stamina is being required when you play. Which will use less energy? ...wrist and fingers, or your whole arm?

quote:

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Originally posted by tonyelder

quote:

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Originally posted by fiddlepogo

One aspect of a loose wrist that I've only realized in the last year or two is this:

It REALLY helps in playing fast!

The shortest notes in a fiddle tune are going to be an unaccented single stroke.

IF there is some wrist/thumb/finger flex going on, once you get above a certain speed, these can be executed with just a flick of the wrist, no arm motion at all, which will make them VERY short and VERY fast.  You can only go as fast as you can make your shortest notes short. Everything else is a bit longer and hence easier to do, but the length and speed of execution of your short notes will act as a limiter on your top speed, because everything else has to be in proportion to those shortest notes.  And short unaccented notes are much harder to do quickly with large arm motions.

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 ...all very good points.

And you might want to consider how much strength and stamina is being required when you play. Which will use less energy? ...wrist and fingers, or your whole arm?

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Also a good point... I'm convinced that bow holds that include increased wrist flexing as well as other common traditional techniques came about for the sake of endurance while playing for square dances.

nice to see Jerry Correll's name come up, Bob- an "under the radar" fiddler who doesn't get enough recognition, even with all his contest ribbons.

i do admire his bowing, and even more I admire his tune selection!

hope to see your loose bowing wrist soon!!

>>Also a good point... I'm convinced that bow holds that include increased wrist flexing as well as other common traditional techniques came about for the sake of endurance while playing for square dances<<

I went to a fiddle workshop in the 80s hosted in part by Darol Anger and when he was asked about his very flexible wrist, his explanation was as you said---economy of motion as a means of surviving hour upon hour of fiddling at dances.

For wrist rubberiness that's even a little freakish (might just be a camera effect) I like watching Daniel Carwile http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE1-rbi9Y2M where the rubber hits the road at about 1:45 if you want to skip the intro.

My instructor said try and make small circles at the end of your down bow like a cam rolling over and starting up again to create a smooth transition from down bowing to up bowing. He suggested hanging your wrist over a chair and just let it drop with gravity to get use to the feel. I thought I was making progress till I started trying to get this loose wrist thing. Now I feel like I 'm back to square 1, but I'm still enjoying it.

Thanks, Dave

Edited by - superdave on 08/11/2012 04:35:27

Superdave, I've seen the same thing happen with my students over and over:  When you concentrate on something, your muscles tend to tense up.  Concentrating on relaxing can be counterproductive,  I suggest that you let your muscles relax instead.  If you feel your muscles getting tense, stop and shake or stretch them out to relax.  Also, if you hold the fingers of your bow hand "correctly" (a controversial term) and keep them relaxed, keeping your wrist relaxed will be much easier.  Many people, including me, find that keeping your fingers curled around the bow and relaxed, gives best results.  Although it may sound strange, you actually have more control when you're more relaxed.  BTW, I play and teach both classical music and folk music.  (Now I'm getting tense anticipating the criticism I'm going to get re "correct" technique.)  

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Originally posted by paulinefiddle

Now I'm getting tense anticipating the criticism I'm going to get re "correct" technique.

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Ok - I'll start...

For me the thing that makes the term "correct technique" controversial is that it seems to be completely ill-defined.

We know that there's already a wide variation in technique even among the top classical violinists, e.g. Heifitz & Perlman.

And even a wider variety of technique among the "top" U.S. Fiddlers - e.g. Berline, Haley, Jarrell, Baker, Miller, Molskey, Gellert (both of'em), etc.  (it's a very long list).

So I just don't see how it's helpful is to suggest to someone that they need to use the "correct" technique when the evidence is that the "correct" technique for any individual player depends strongly on both the individual's physique - and on the kind of music the individual wants to play, e.g. OT, Bluegrass, Swing, Contest Style, Classical, Irish, Scottish, Contra, etc.

So, what am I missing?

--OTJ

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Originally posted by OTJunky

quote:

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Originally posted by paulinefiddle

Now I'm getting tense anticipating the criticism I'm going to get re "correct" technique.

---

Ok - I'll start...

For me the thing that makes the term "correct technique" controversial is that it seems to be completely ill-defined.

We know that there's already a wide variation in technique even among the top classical violinists, e.g. Heifitz & Perlman.

And even a wider variety of technique among the "top" U.S. Fiddlers - e.g. Berline, Haley, Jarrell, Baker, Miller, Molskey, Gellert (both of'em), etc.  (it's a very long list).

So I just don't see how it's helpful is to suggest to someone that they need to use the "correct" technique when the evidence is that the "correct" technique for any individual player depends strongly on both the individual's physique - and on the kind of music the individual wants to play, e.g. OT, Bluegrass, Swing, Contest Style, Classical, Irish, Scottish, Contra, etc.

So, what am I missing?

--OTJ

 

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How about this:  The appropriate technique is the technique that gives the best results for an individual player.

>How about this:  The appropriate technique is the technique that gives the best results for an individual player.

Trouble is, players often don't really test more than one way (that is, what they started with) of doing things, so how would they know what the best results are? Just THINK how much more utterly fabulous a fiddler Byron Berline would be if he loosened his wrist and fixed his terrible left-hand shape!!

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Originally posted by Dave S

>How about this:  The appropriate technique is the technique that gives the best results for an individual player.

Trouble is, players often don't really test more than one way (that is, what they started with) of doing things, so how would they know what the best results are? Just THINK how much more utterly fabulous a fiddler Byron Berline would be if he loosened his wrist and fixed his terrible left-hand shape!!

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Dave, that's why teachers and fellow fiddlers are good.  They can suggest new ways of doing things.

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Originally posted by Dave S

>How about this:  The appropriate technique is the technique that gives the best results for an individual player.

Trouble is, players often don't really test more than one way (that is, what they started with) of doing things, so how would they know what the best results are? Just THINK how much more utterly fabulous a fiddler Byron Berline would be if he loosened his wrist and fixed his terrible left-hand shape!!

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I find it hard to imagine.... he's good enough as is that he inspired me to try the TUF (thumb under frog) hold, and it works for me.

But yeah, I AM for trying different things  I went from being a chest fiddler with a palmed left hand to being an under the chin fiddler with a straight wrist, and from not using a should rest, to using one.  I tried choking up on the bow, and didn't like it.  I don't know if my bowhold before TUF was precisely classical, but it was a lot closer to it than what it is now.

I suppose even Berline would say he could play better. Most fiddler's would say that.

It's just that if he played much better he probably couldn't win any more Oklahoma fiddle contests or play Bluegrass right....

--OTJ

I don't know how you got the impression that Byron has a stiff wrist.

Byron uses a very loose wrist. I have known him for over 40 years and I have played with him and watched him countless times. He inspired me to loosen my wrist more.

stay tooned...

Glenn Godsey

Here is my "Byron inspired" wrist action:

http://www.fiddlehangout.com/myhangout/videos.asp?searchTitle=%22Oldtimer%22+plays+%22Take+Me+Back+to+Tulia%22&searchCat=&searchRateOrder=+%3E+&searchRateValue=&searchPlayOrder=+%3E+&searchPlayValue=&searchGenre=&searchDateFrom=&searchDateTo=&submit=Search

stay tooned...

Glenn Godsey

Bear in mind that if bowing was easy, we wouldn't be compelled to go on about it so.  At some point, analysis (language) breaks down.  We still have to try, so we'll have to forgive the use of the word "correct," with the understanding that maybe it's not always quite correct.  It's the playing that's the thing.  If a different technique produces a desirable result, it's probably also "correct."