Just got back from a first time shortened visit to Cliff Top festival and I'm sort of confused by the predominant style of play there.

I've been working on my fiddling, trying to get close to the sound of the old timers I have recorded...Mel Wine, Charley Osborne, Art Stamper etc...what I hear is very distinctive playing by each....each note a point to hear, and bowings that make the sound sort of original with each one...

The music coming out of many of the tents at Cliff Top was very rounded, all played at a consistent high speed and I had a hard time identifying a tune even if it was a tune I played all the time.

I am obviously new to the festival scene and felt isolated in being unable to join in....but are there different schools for this kind of playing/jamming?....and am I a lost tribe?

Thanks

I believe there's a conspiracy to uglify all these beautiful fiddle tunes so people don't start liking public domain works of art to any significant degree.

Some people call this "festival style," although I don't get out to these events that much, so I'm not sure. Its sort of like old time music - "but still there's a difference!"

I think this comes from people who are more interested in the social interaction of festivals and jamming with others than they are in really learning the tunes. Or they might not be aware of the sources you mentioned (and of course many more) and have only caught fragments on the fringe of a jam session, or learned from someone who did.. Why bother to actually learn a tune when you can just look on YouTube and find the first sloppy version and take it from there. "Do what feels good! Play it your own way!" etc., etc., etc.  In the process a lot of the nuances and subtleties that make these tunes so great in the older renditions is being lost, in my opinion.

In fairness, there were probably also many people at Clifftop who share your attitude, and play some very good music. They may have been hidden away in corners somewhere though.

Don't know if its a lost tribe or not, but maybe a small one these days.

Edited by - DougD on 08/02/2012 10:16:32

Jamming is jamming. Solo is solo. Two different things.

Terri

BTW, my suggestion would be not to worry about this too much. Learn the tunes you want in your own fashion, and let others do the same. Keep your eyes open for people who play the way you like for possible learning and playing partners. Maybe go to Galax instead of Clifftop. You don't say where you're located, but around here there are plenty of small festivals where some pretty good music is played.

Terri, that may be so, but its perfectly possible to play more reasonable versions of tunes in a group setting than what sometimes happens. That's what I like to do. Doesn't have to be solo to be distinctive.

What Doug said.

There are plenty of people who play in a more individual style but were either at smaller jams or at the bigger jams and their more distinctive sound got swamped by everyone else.

Distinctive sound doesn't have be solo. Some of the best and most creative fiddling I've ever heard happened in jams with two or three good fiddlers.

Learn to play what you want to play. Find a chance to play it. It really is that simple (although it can be hard to do).

Personally, I'm a fan of more nuanced detailed playing styles which almost requires that you focus for some time on really studying a few fiddlers. So you're not alone. We're perhaps a small tribe but certainly not a lost one.

And the big jams can be fun too. You just have to have different expectations. With a good big jam, you're going to be part of a big friendly group and a big wall of sound. But most of the fine details of the tune are going to turn into mush.

Edited by - rcc on 08/02/2012 11:54:20

I suppose I could just spout off like I always do, but I thought I'd try a different tack this time, so here's a question for ya'll to discuss (if you see any merit):

Could it be that the Festival Style of playing fiddle tunes has it's roots in groups like the Fuzzies, who (if I'm not forgetting my history) championed the playing style of Henry Reed?

There are several theories about the origins of that stye.

First, it creates a welcoming environment for new comers who want to learn how to play old time music. With everybody playing it doesn't matter that much if you mess up as long as you're not obnoxious about it - so you can set in and learn tunes, how to play at speed, and how to keep rhythm.

Second, I think Coelhoe mentioned that it might be a carryover from the "folk scene" where people routinely get together, arrange themselves in a circle and sing folk songs together. That looks a lot like what happens in festival jams - often one member of the circle will teach the song and once that's done everybody joins in. Again, it's a welcoming environment so people are pretty forgiving of mistakes.

Third, is the one you mentioned. Certainly, when I was in Florida in the late 70's the Fuzzy Mountain String band was a model for all of us - not only as a source for tunes but also as a playing/learning model. But this might just be the same as the first reason.

Anyhow, I don't play in festival style jams much anymore - preferring to spend more time on trying to capture and render some details from the styles of some of my favorite old time fiddlers. That said, I can attest to the fact that playing festival style can be both great fun and a good way to make long time friends. There are two things about it.

First, IME it's really more fun for the players than for the listeners. In that circle you're surrounded by a wall of sound and you work with the other musicians to find the grove, and enhance it on each repetition - which is why the tunes seem to go on endlessly.

Second, there's also a substantial social element to it - sharing stories, tunes, techniques and often food - that's somehow very comforting in today's world where we often don't interact in any substantive with people outside our circle of family and close friends.

I think festival style playing is not something to "approve" or "disapprove" of. It's just another way to approach the music and it works very well for a lot of people.

--OTJ

Edited by - OTJunky on 08/02/2012 16:24:34

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Originally posted by OTJunky

there's also a substantial social element to it - sharing stories, tunes, techniques and often food -
--OTJ

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Looking forward to the next festival......jam, jam,  talk, talk, eat, eat,...

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Originally posted by OTJunky

First, IME it's really more fun for the players than for the listeners.
--OTJ

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Ron Pen said he knew someone who once said (about shape-note singing, but it also might apply here) "I wouldn't walk across the street to hear it, but I'd walk a hundred miles to sing it!"

wow, this thread is in two different sections with the same replies... what manner of sorcery is this?!!

I've never been, but several years ago Dwight Diller told me he thought i wouldn't like Cliff Top but I would like the smaller, hole-in- the-wall festivals around...could just be it ain't for evrybody!

I first witnessed this phenomenon in the 1970's at Brandywine, the first non-native old time fiddler's convention where young people from the cities met to play and exchange tunes and spend time with their country gurus.  None of the young people sounded like the fiddlers I knew in the mountains of Pennsylvania, where I lived then.  The sounded like a thousand insects droning on and on from where I stood that evening on a slight hill top.  Many years later I went to Clifftop and the same thing happened.  But if you dig deep enough through the layers of sound, you will find jams where fiddlers play their tunes the way the learned them.  There are regional differences in some camps and there are wonderful fiddlers underneath that sonic screen of sound that are revered by those around them.  None of the old timers sound like the festival style fiddlers, and thank God, there are strong individuals who persist in pursuing their own styles.  Clifftop is a great meeting place for folks from all across the country and the world.  The ideas exchanged are priceless.  It does take some acclimation for the new comer but it is worth the effort.  I missed this year for the first time in over 15 years.

I enjoy playing this style with a group of good musicians, but it still bugs me that there is such a uniformity as to even warrant a name like "festival style." It's an unfortunate product of the homogenization of culture, even folk culture, since the early twentieth century through mass media and personal mobility. I'm a student of Italian culture, and this OT festival phenomenon reminds me of how all those lovely dialects of Italian homogenized into modern Italian in the age of mass media. Sure, elements of the dialect persist, but they have become almost completely overshadowed by the broadly accepted "right" way to do things.

FWIW, I perceive a strong predominance of the round peak style in today's "festival style." It's not exactly round peak, of course, but those are the roots that I hear (more so than, say, Henry Reed). This is even more true in banjo playing today than in fiddling, but the two go together.

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Originally posted by bsed

I suppose I could just spout off like I always do, but I thought I'd try a different tack this time, so here's a question for ya'll to discuss (if you see any merit):

Could it be that the Festival Style of playing fiddle tunes has it's roots in groups like the Fuzzies, who (if I'm not forgetting my history) championed the playing style of Henry Reed?

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The Fuzzy Mountain String Band were influenced by Henry Reed, but also by others - Oscar Wright, Emory Bailey, Taylor Kimble, Gaither Carlton, Burl Hammonds, and others.

Here's a little vid that I put together for a tribute jam that I led a few years ago. It lists where they got their tunes from.

http://friends.fiddlejammer.com/FMSBsmall.mov  - odd the link only plays the audio unless you click in the url field. Dunno why.

Edited by - FiddleJammer on 08/03/2012 20:38:45

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Originally posted by DougD

BTW, my suggestion would be not to worry about this too much. Learn the tunes you want in your own fashion, and let others do the same. Keep your eyes open for people who play the way you like for possible learning and playing partners. Maybe go to Galax instead of Clifftop. You don't say where you're located, but around here there are plenty of small festivals where some pretty good music is played.

Terri, that may be so, but its perfectly possible to play more reasonable versions of tunes in a group setting than what sometimes happens. That's what I like to do. Doesn't have to be solo to be distinctive.

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That's when using our words is helpful to give a little introduction, or explain how your version is the same or different than some other versions, or demo a little first to let folks in on how they might catch an improved slant on what could be played sloppy. It's all a work in progress and there are some folks who are OK about that and there are some folks who aren't. That is the real challenge of navigating an event like Clifftop. The more seasoned among us are aware of how new comers sometimes feel isolated or ostracized or like outsiders. I think part of that is not being able to sort out jams with higher or lower expectations. Group that let just anyone play can get hectic and chaotic, but it's not necessarily a given. Some strong leaders can steer a big jam towards better and better version, and it can be a real peak experience. Groups that want more control can enforce a particular ethic or version and limit the participation of folks who might not fit within that structure.

Simply said, what gets denigrated as festival style can also be worshipped as festival style. It's quite a matter of preference and comfort with experimentation or imperfection.

I may be wrong, but I don't really think there is a festival style. I just think that when you get several folks together (especially multiple fiddlers) playing their own styles together (especially at a fast clip), it starts sounding mushy to a listener. I know the majority of the people that I play with at festivals are knowledgable about the music they are playing - where the tunes originate, source recordings, etc.

I was at Clifftop this year, and I personally experienced several types of jams. One type was where I was the only fiddler, and I played my best tunes in my own style, playing tunes I learned from source fiddlers. Another type of jam was where I played with other fiddlers that I play with several times a year - we share a lot of repertoire and play similar styles, so I think our jams were fairly tight and hopefully retained some of the elements of the source musicians. A third type of jam was where I played with other fiddlers that I don't play with often - sometimes I was playing along with tunes I had never heard before, sometimes they were. These aren't tight jams, but they're fun and useful for discovering new tunes to research, work on playing by ear, and just sharing tunes and stories with new people. The fourth type of jam was the rip-snorting barn-burner jams, which was typically at night with a bunch of good friends. I don't doubt that these jams sounded like a mess to anyone listening, but we were having a blast. I can't really explain why it is fun to play loud and fast - must be the musical equivalent to popping a wheelie or burning rubber.

I'm sorry that you felt isolated and left out. I think this was the first Clifftop that I didn't feel that way at some point, and this is my 4th one. Even though the old time community is generally pretty friendly, it can still be pretty intimidating. You really need to meet people before you get to Clifftop (at smaller festivals, workshops, etc.) so that you will see some friendly faces there. My husband and I go together, and that helps because we can always play on our own if we can't find a jam, and usually someone will join us when we do. A lot of people camp with friends from home - they may venture into other camps, but there is always a home base for jamming. (There is the old adage of traveling 700 miles to play with your next door neighbor...) We always make new friends at Clifftop, and we try to welcome new people to play with us, although I will admit that there are times when we want to keep a particular jam small and tight.

I don't think I've made my case very well for my original argument that there is no such thing as "festival style" - I'm still tired from the last couple of nights of Clifftop and the drive home, but maybe I've at least given you my perspective on why I enjoy festivals, and Clifftop in particular.

Judy

I had a Fuzzy Mountain S.B album, and a Highwoods S.B. album back in the '70s.  When I hear recordings of "festival jams", the overall sound reminds me more of Highwoods than Fuzzy Mountain... it's partly the bass.  It's also pretty common to find a banjo uke in there thwacking the backbeats.  The result is a tendency for the backbeats to be a little more hyped than in a 20's 78 recording or a band like Hollow Rock S.B.  To me it's sort of like you take the rhythmic underpinnings of a bluegrass band, mute the mandolin backbeats (by turning it into a banjo uke), then dispense with break etiquette, and put clawhammer banjo and fiddles playing unison on top.

One thing I've noticed is that the groove of a particular group of musicians is defined by the most rigid, least flexible one.

At least one particular person will only be able to  bend so much towards a particular rhythmic emphasis, and then, if the group is going to stay tight and musical, the rhythmically more flexible players are going to hear that and dovetail their rhythms to that person (or persons).  Just because all of us have heard bluegrass, and heard rock and roll of various flavors, mentally we are able to hear rhythmic possibilities that most of the Old Timers probably couldn't.

I DO hear some Round Peak influence in the Festival Style sound, but it's not the only one.

Actually, I think just about every band with twin fiddles played in an Old Time style probably had something to do with it-

Skillet Lickers, Highwoods, Fuzzy Mountain, and even Jeff Claus and Judy Hyman before they got more extreme with the Horseflies- they were regulars at places like Galax in the mid-70's, and I remember some of the jams at Galax and Fiddler's Grove having something like that "festival" groove even then.

A couple more aspects...

What's the word for that phenomenon when two people are playing two different (but harmonically compatible and same length) versions of the same melody at the same time?  I forget what it's called.... (I'm pretty sure bj will remember it- I vaguely remember her mentioning it in a thread some years back...)

Anyway, it's something more common in various ethnic folk music genres, but it's antithetical to the classical concept of unison playing, where they play EXACTLY the same notes and strive to phrase them EXACTLY the same way.

Another thing is tone.  There are more and more people around who play fiddle who had at least SOME violin background.

Those of us who don't have STILL heard a fair amount of violin, along with fiddling from other genres that use a pretty sweet (possibly also classically influenced) tone.

The net result is a tendency to move away from a more rustic to a more polished fiddle tone.

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Originally posted by fiddlepogo

What's the word for that phenomenon when two people are playing two different (but harmonically compatible and same length) versions of the same melody at the same time?  I forget what it's called.... (I'm pretty sure bj will remember it- I vaguely remember her mentioning it in a thread some years back...)

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Heterophony (or heterophonic texture)

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Originally posted by oldtimestrings

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Originally posted by fiddlepogo

What's the word for that phenomenon when two people are playing two different (but harmonically compatible and same length) versions of the same melody at the same time?  I forget what it's called.... (I'm pretty sure bj will remember it- I vaguely remember her mentioning it in a thread some years back...)

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Heterophony (or heterophonic texture)

 

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That term makes total sense... but that's not what I remember.... weird.

Anyway, yeah.  I think there is a tendency in the musical aspects of our culture to move away from heterophony.

And it can be part of the charm of an Old Time jam, and if it's totally gone, it just doesn't quite seem Old Time anymore.

I can't recall where I read it, but in describing the effect of square dance contests on square dancing, (perhaps in an old Old Time Herald?) the observation was made that the rustic and enjoyable dance form became something that the common folk no longer did or could do for that matter, fancy matching outfits and lock-step synchronicity. Sorry for the run-on sentence. But, I think it's beneficial to make the distinction that we can all jam and have a good time, regardless if we can play like Bruce Molsky or not. Performance is a different skill level that not every one needs to strive for. Jamming is a social experience with unlimited combinations and results. I'm fond of saying sometimes it's nirvana and sometimes it's not.

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Originally posted by fiddlepogo

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Originally posted by oldtimestrings
 

Heterophony (or heterophonic texture) 

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That term makes total sense... but that's not what I remember.... weird.

Anyway, yeah.  I think there is a tendency in the musical aspects of our culture to move away from heterophony.

And it can be part of the charm of an Old Time jam, and if it's totally gone, it just doesn't quite seem Old Time anymore.

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This is the term that musicologists and ethnomusicologists use to refer to the phenomenon you've described. I'm not aware of any other term, except perhaps something like simultaneous variations.

You're right that Western culture has moved away from heterophony in most aspects of its music (especially classical and popular music), although it's still alive and well in various folk genres (traditional Irish music, for instance). It's very, very common in other parts of the musical globe.

Heterophony is indeed a fundamental part of what most of us seem to think of as "festival style," but keep in mind that this sort of texture is just as common in the regional fiddling styles that the festival culture has homogenized to some extent. Even the basic relationship between a single fiddle and its clawhammer banjo accompaniment, playing the same basic tune but in different ways, is a manifestation of heterophony.

Hey, Terri. Missed seeing you at Clifftop last week.  Your observations are spot-on.

Terri - Nice little tribute to the Fuzzies. Always makes me sad though to see some of those faces of friends who left us too soon. Might also mention that some of those tunes were learned from their own collecting efforts.

bsed - I think it would be more accurate to say that Hollow Rock and Alan Jabbour personally were more responsible for spreading the music of Henry Reed. We recorded a few of his tunes too.

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Originally posted by GeeDubya

Hey, Terri. Missed seeing you at Clifftop last week.  Your observations are spot-on.

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Thanks, George. Yes indeedy, I enjoyed our geezer jam last year. Hope to catch up with you somewhere down the road.