Pogo - I agree with you about the amount of playing time involved. I know Old Time fiddlers who play a lot who've had wrist and hand problems. And even some who don't really play that much. And pretty relaxed players too I'd say. And then some people who haven't.

These things are called "repetitive" motion injuries, aren't they?

And as was pointed out in another thread, classical technique is not "designed around vibrato." It includes it, and fairly recently too, apparently.

Edited by - DougD on 07/28/2012 10:42:38

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

These things are called "repetitive" motion injuries, aren't they?

---

FWIW, I think they are called repetitive "strain" injuries.  Motion (stretching, light exercise) seems to cure a lot of them, or has for me.

It seems the two terms may be used interchangeably:  http://ergonomics.about.com/od/repetitivestressinjuries/f/whatisrmi.htm  In any case, the key word is repetitive.

Now I have to get back outside and work on my technique with a scythe, which can also cause this kind of thing.

Interesting subject.    I started learning the violin at age 30 and after much thought I decided to take classical lessons as I wanted to take a shortcut. My aim was to play country fiddle.

Not necessarily bluegrass or old timey just to play in country bands.

So it made sense to take formal lessons.

What did I get from the experience?

I learnt how to hold the fiddle without feeling pain from tension.

I learnt correct grip of the bow.

I learnt the correct frame of the left hand.

I played in an amateur orchestra for 2 yrs. That was my truly formal playing time and was invaluable.

And after getting the chops I thought would carry me through, I gave the lessons away.

I would rather approach a tune from a higher playing level than thinking some " bad habit' is the only way to play it.

 Anyway to each his/her own.

There was a time in my life when "bad habits" revolved around smoking, drinking, and carrying on, and occasionally off, as well.  To apply the term to fiddling seems anemic, somehow.  I don't disagree with the concept, I'm just struck by how life changes.  I've got to wonder at it all. 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Verandah

.....

I learnt the correct frame of the left hand.

.....

---

Great - so what is the "correct" frame of the left hand - the way Heifitz did ir or the way Perlman does it?

--OTJ

quote:

---

Originally posted by OTJunky

quote:

---

Originally posted by Verandah

.....

I learnt the correct frame of the left hand.

.....

---

Great - so what is the "correct" frame of the left hand - the way Heifitz did ir or the way Perlman does it?

--OTJ

 

---

That's a good point.  Everyone's body is a little different, and players have to make allowances for that.

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

Pogo - I agree with you about the amount of playing time involved. I know Old Time fiddlers who play a lot who've had wrist and hand problems. And even some who don't really play that much. And pretty relaxed players too I'd say. And then some people who haven't.

These things are called "repetitive" motion injuries, aren't they?

And as was pointed out in another thread, classical technique is not "designed around vibrato." It includes it, and fairly recently too, apparently.

---

I would say the CURRENT accepted classical technique is designed around it.

There were "vibrato wars" about a hundred years ago, and at least temporarily, the anti-vibrato or limited vibrato proponents LOST.

I'm not so sure 100 years is "fairly recently".

I think it was Heifetz, a much imitated violinist, who used it ALL the time.

Anything that gets used ALL THE TIME is going to shape the technique to FACILITATE doing it all the time.

Here's an interesting article about the vibrato wars and about some movement in the other direction:

http://theamericanscholar.org/vibrato-wars/

Also, an excerpt from the wikipedia article on vibrato:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibrato#Vibrato_wars

quote:

---

Originally posted by OTJunky

quote:

---

Originally posted by Verandah

.....

I learnt the correct frame of the left hand.

.....

---

Great - so what is the "correct" frame of the left hand - the way Heifitz did ir or the way Perlman does it?

--OTJ

 

---

Well if you put it like that, I dare say Heifitz. Everything I've read of him suggests a perfect technique.

By the frame, I mean a straight wrist and the hand held forward and over the neck. 

It's all about efficiency and not doing anything that could hurt your hand.

When you hold the violin the bones in the forearm cross each other. The muscles have to learn to operate in an un normal position.

quote:

---

Originally posted by eric marten

quote:

---

Originally posted by paulinefiddle

Thanks for your response, Mossyfiddle

There is a raging debate among classical violinists about whether or not to use a shoulder rest.  Also, players who play classical Baroque music in period style do not use a shoulder rest, and they use the pancake wrist style.  They don't do much shifting.

---

The baroque violin music of Corelli, Bach, Handel, Vivaldi, Tartini, Telemann,  etc.  is full of shifting to very high positions.  When playing baroque violin, you simply learn and adjust to shift without benefit of chin-rest or shoulder rest.  Like anything else, you do it long enough and it gets easier.

---

Keep in mind that barock violins had a shorter neck which by itself will require  / or allow a different technique.

One of my violins was a short-neck originally and was changed later.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Verandah

Well if you put it like that, I dare say Heifitz. Everything I've read of him suggests a perfect technique.

By the frame, I mean a straight wrist and the hand held forward and over the neck. 

It's all about efficiency and not doing anything that could hurt your hand.

When you hold the violin the bones in the forearm cross each other. The muscles have to learn to operate in an un normal position.

---

I guess it follow then that the Russian bow hold is to be preferred over the Franco-Belgian bow hold for fiddling in a country music band?

--OTJ

Edited by - OTJunky on 07/29/2012 06:37:17

quote:

---

Originally posted by OTJunky

quote:

---

Originally posted by Verandah

Well if you put it like that, I dare say Heifitz. Everything I've read of him suggests a perfect technique.

By the frame, I mean a straight wrist and the hand held forward and over the neck. 

It's all about efficiency and not doing anything that could hurt your hand.

When you hold the violin the bones in the forearm cross each other. The muscles have to learn to operate in an un normal position.

---

 

I guess it follow then that the Russian bow hold is to be preferred over the Franco-Belgian bow hold for fiddling in a country music band?

--OTJ

 

---

Danged if I know.     

I have to agree that all this propaganda about "classical technique" being immune from repetitive injury is a load.

quote:

---

Originally posted by OTJ

---

 

I guess it follow then that the Russian bow hold is to be preferred over the Franco-Belgian bow hold for fiddling in a country music band?

--OTJ

 

---

Take a look at some pictures of  Jascha Heifetz and Tommy Jarrell -  Pretty similar bow hold - "Russian"

I am a mandolin player...purty good. I am learning the fiddle, myself. I have had 2 teachers tell me to keep my fingers of my left hand down. So while playing a G note on D string, I should have my other fingers behind my ring finger, planted. I don't, and a lot of youtube fiddlers don't either. Is this a bad habit? It is certainly why I am NOW teaching myself. I would rather not listen to a teacher that has no flexibility in what my left hand has been doing for 25 years.

I tried looking up Russian bow hold and Franco-Belgian bow hold, and I found lots of video tutorials for Franco-Belgian and none for Russian.  For Franco-Belgian, I especially liked the tutorial by Itzhak Perlman at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r0WW-KN6VM&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLA71241D92F2E17AE

For Russian, watch any Heifetz video.  Good hold for fiddling, among many.

quote:

---

Originally posted by daman_daplaya

I am a mandolin player...purty good. I am learning the fiddle, myself. I have had 2 teachers tell me to keep my fingers of my left hand down. So while playing a G note on D string, I should have my other fingers behind my ring finger, planted. I don't, and a lot of youtube fiddlers don't either. Is this a bad habit? It is certainly why I am NOW teaching myself. I would rather not listen to a teacher that has no flexibility in what my left hand has been doing for 25 years.

---

Teacher was right, in general. Keeping your fingers down and not moving anything that's not necessary is considered good practice with any stringed instrument, not just fiddle. The less movement you have, the faster and easier you can play.

Lots of people play OK even when they let their fingers fly all around, but they would likely play better, easier, if they could quiet their hands down. I wouldn't fault a teacher for trying to show me an easier way to play well.

For (IMO) great left fingering watch Vassar Clemens playing 'Lonesome Fiddle Blues': http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5voqaCXPt_M

hardy- That video was great, it shows Ronnie McCoury not doing very well at putting his fingers down, like a mandolin player. I watched Vasser break it down here http://youtu.be/oMQetPRL2Uo and maybe I am not sure what they are talking about keeping your fingers down, but his bowing, WOW. His arm just floats.

Edited by - daman_daplaya on 08/01/2012 18:27:37

quote:

---

Originally posted by woodwiz

quote:

---

Originally posted by daman_daplaya

I am a mandolin player...purty good. I am learning the fiddle, myself. I have had 2 teachers tell me to keep my fingers of my left hand down. So while playing a G note on D string, I should have my other fingers behind my ring finger, planted. I don't, and a lot of youtube fiddlers don't either. Is this a bad habit? It is certainly why I am NOW teaching myself. I would rather not listen to a teacher that has no flexibility in what my left hand has been doing for 25 years.

---

Teacher was right, in general. Keeping your fingers down and not moving anything that's not necessary is considered good practice with any stringed instrument, not just fiddle. The less movement you have, the faster and easier you can play.

Lots of people play OK even when they let their fingers fly all around, but they would likely play better, easier, if they could quiet their hands down. I wouldn't fault a teacher for trying to show me an easier way to play well.

---

I teach my students to put all 3 fingers down to play a note with the third finger because it's generally easier to find the exact right place for the third finger and get the intonation exactly right that way.  However, some of my students like to put down only the third finger, and if they get the intonation right, that's OK with me.  A flexible attitude helps.

To some violinists,  "fiddling" would be considered a bad habit. 

Hi, everyone,

My personal take on bad habits is that they are a great bogey used to scare young violinist into learning the "Correct classical technique" The reason I say that is because as musicians the way we play is always changing and evolving. The way we play something today isn't the way we will play it tomorrow. Our "Bad Habits"  are really just where we are at at this point and as we grow as musicians we will discover new and different ways of playing that will overcome and do away with the so called bad habits. How many fiddlers when just starting out have a hard time keeping the bow straight across the strings and have to really think about it? How many of you who have been playing for a while ever think about it? You see? With experience you overcame that Bad Habit and good bowing is second nature now. You can listen to early recordings of a musician and then listen to a later recording and hear the level of sophistication and style that they bring to playing the same tune! However good we are we are never satisfied, we are always seeking to improve our playing and as our music changes and evolves our bad habits simply disappear.

Rosin

Good points Rosin. I agree that much of the "bad habit" talk comes from the realm of formal music training school view, not much in the folk world to which fiddling is part.

I never put much stock into the "bad habit" idea. Folks acquire a certain technique, that "works" for them to play at the moment, (more easily) achieve what's important to them for now. Over time what's important to them changes and they modify it to what works better. As the player grows, it will probably require modifying or acquiring many new techniques. If the current technique proves to not work to what the person wants do; rather than dwelling on on the old as a bad habit/unlearning; they could just move forward, view it as learning another whole new technique they now desire. Rather than comparing the new to the old, the new can be compared to a void, just something they have not yet learned how to do.

Of couse the other alternative method some opt for, for those folks who put great stock into the view of  "correct", all the formal music school requirements, and worry about the negative, "bad habits" and such; the option is to not play at all. Or put off learning to play until someday. Years, if not decades, of not doing it wrong, avoiding "bad habits".  

quote:

---

Originally posted by mudbug

To some violinists,  "fiddling" would be considered a bad habit. 

---

It is very difficult to stop fiddling once you get started.  Some people never quit... they don't even try.