which is better suited to fiddling?  i know the strad has a smaller pegbox, which might be a problem for OT fiddlers like myself who sometimes retune (guitar players hate it :)  if there are other differences/advantages i am not aware of, please let me know.

thanks

jack 

I think the quality of the fiddle's construction matter a lot more than whether or not it's builder followed either a Stradivarius or Guarnerius pattern - or an Amati, Stainer, or Hopf pattern.

In the end all that matters is how a fiddle sounds and that's almost all about the quality of the materials and construction - and the set up.

So, I doubt your question has an answer though you might like the "look" of one better than the other.

--paulm

I remember that you are thinking of buying an instrument in the white and finishing it with a luthier friend. I don't think it will matter much for fiddling. Which does your luthier prefer? Around here, many old time fiddlers prize instruments on the Stainer and Hopf models, maybe just because there are a fair number of old ones around.

Yeah - and there is a "subjective" element to it.

I do believe that some OT fiddlers think they sound better playing on a Stainer or Hopf model when I doubt it's true objectively.

I guess there's a certain gestalt to OT fiddling that encompasses more than just the sound.

--OTJ

That's funny - I haven't been playing much lately, but the other day I was sitting on a bench in the backyard sawing out some tunes, getting back into it, on an old German fiddle marked "Seidel," which is made on the Hopf model. Later my friend Pam said she was in the front yard and the tone of the fiddle was "just amazing" from there. Of course I'm an expert bower!

My main fiddle is another old German one, which has pretty high arching, maybe like a Stainer.

Edited by - DougD on 07/19/2012 17:42:56

I assume you are talking about Strad and Guarneri copies. In either case, it depends on how well the copier copied!

In general though, everything I've read indicates a true Strad is sweeter, with soaring highs, and comparatively easier response, but less dynamic range. A true Guarneri has richer lows, more potential power, but it takes more effort to get the power out of it. Viloin maker Jonathan Cooper once stated something to this effect on his website, but his site has changed and I couldn't find it any more. Randy Howard played Cooper instruments, but I don't know what model. You might email Jonathan:

http://www.jcooperviolinmaker.com/default.asp

All other things being equal, I prefer Guarneri-style instruments for fiddling. Of course, all other things are never equal.

Most of the instruments out there just broadly copy some stylistic aspects and don't attempt to duplicate the functional parts of the two predominant designs.  Also, both produced a number of patterns, rather than just one.  Also, different fiddlers have different tastes.  I'm not convinced there's really any but the most conditional answer possible to your question. 

Mine are mostly a Steinhopfguarnivarius pattern, and they seem to work OK. Unless you are working at a VERY high level, the pattern is of little consequence.  If you are building from a kit, just get the best quality you can justify.

Of the different main types, the Stradivarius and Guarnerius are the closest in appearance externally. I'm sure experts can spot the differences quickly, but it's not like the narrow waist on an Amati, the double purfling on a Maggini, the high arching on a Stainer.

The essential differences are internal, in the arching and in the bass bar. I have heard that not all violins labeled Guarnerius have the true Guarnerius arching, that needs to be checked out with a dental mirror by an expert.

I had a Guarnerius labeled fiddle in the 1970's- no idea if it was a true Guarnerius design internally. I liked it though. And I was enough of a maverick that to have something different than the normal Strat label seemed appealing.

Ultimately, none of this makes any difference once you can play halfway decently.
If it sounds good, and plays good it is good. Well, I suppose there IS a point where you don't want the looks to embarrass you.

Back in the '70s, I might have been embarrassed to be playing a newish orange fiddle with a bow that wasn't real wood (if they had had such things back then). Now I don't care.
But I'm sure I have my limits... if someone gave me a purple fiddle, I probably wouldn't play it in public no matter how good it sounded!

quote:

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Originally posted by fiddlepogo

Of the different main types, the Stradivarius and Guarnerius are the closest in appearance externally. I'm sure experts can spot the differences quickly, but it's not like the narrow waist on an Amati, the double purfling on a Maggini, the high arching on a Stainer.

The essential differences are internal, in the arching and in the bass bar. I have heard that not all violins labeled Guarnerius have the true Guarnerius arching, that needs to be checked out with a dental mirror by an expert.

I had a Guarnerius labeled fiddle in the 1970's- no idea if it was a true Guarnerius design internally. I liked it though. And I was enough of a maverick that to have something different than the normal Strat label seemed appealing.

Ultimately, none of this makes any difference once you can play halfway decently.
If it sounds good, and plays good it is good. Well, I suppose there IS a point where you don't want the looks to embarrass you.
 

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Any resemblance of a "Strad" or "Guraneri" or "Amati" or "Stieiner" "model" trade fiddle to an original is strictly superficial, and basically meaningless. Long pattern Strads had narrow looking waists, Stainer was a follower of Amati, who built fiddles with pretty high, round arching. "Stainer model" trade fiddles look nothing like the original; neither do "Maggini models."

Arching is clearly visible from the outside; no mirror needed.  Bass bars have some effect, but perhaps less than one might think. You need fairly gross changes to make an appreciable difference, IME.

You can start with just about any outline and make a decent sounding fiddle.

Just for example, I spent the last three years developing our Westport model, especially for country, bluegrass, and contest fiddlers. It has been very well received among working pros. I never gave a moment's thought to the model, just used one of our standard ones. All my attention went to wood selection, graduation, ground, and setup.

+1 to what woodwiz, giannaviolins and Sam Y said. Hard to deal in the abstract as opposed to the qualities of individual instruments. Just trying out the same model by an individual maker will reveal subtle variants among individual, supposedly identical instruments. Having said that, there are folks who would point to the differing sound qualities that Sam Y identified, though it's very possible that the difference could have more to do with the individual instruments in question (which, after all, are a very small sample of a maker's output).

It's also worth remembering that Guarnerius didn't have a particularly stellar reputation in the violin world until Pagannini started using one. Some of our unconscious notions of sound are based on sponsorship and good PR.

I doubt that there is anyone in the world who can reliably identify any violin's maker by its sound on any given day. If you took 5 Strads, 5 Guarneris, and 5 Amatis, had them each played by 3 expert players before the best violin experts in the world, and asked those experts to identify the makers of the violins, I expect that the results you got would be very little better than chance. At least that's what the results of similar tests that have already been done would indicate.

Top luthiers and top players will tell you that they perceive differences among the instruments of various makers, and that certain trends become apparent upon long familiarity, and I wouldn't argue with that, but the differences are so subtle that they have really no meaning whatsoever to an  average player or beginning maker.

My recommendation would be to learn to make a good violin on any standard pattern, and after you've done 20 or more and learned to control tonal characteristics on a given model, then start thinking about  possibly making changes in your choice of model.