Tony,

Re the John Summers video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLStkKGmEmw

Did you catch the statement at 42, and 43 seconds in:

"I'd catch a hold of the bow like that, and he'd catch around my hand, see, and that's all I done as I remember for two years, just set there and play while I'd go to sleep."

He didn't say "He" before "just set there and play", but in the context, that has to be what he meant-

for the first two years, he wasn't really PLAYING anything, his hand was passively going along for the ride, while his dad actually did the playing, and the point was that he was learning the bowing, before he actually learned to note the tunes.

THEN it got so John could actually do the bowing himself, THEN he got big enough to do the left hand.

First of all, the two years of passive bowing experience, it's clear that the elder Summers expected his son to bow it PRECISELY like he did.  He evidently didn't believe in "doing your own thing"!

Now it's true, we don't know exactly what (from the video) was being transferred, but 2 years of passive bowing experience means that his subconscious was getting programmed with his daddy's bowing style, whatever that was.

And if it WAS patterns, this kind of teaching method would be MORE than sufficient to convey ANY pattern.

"It's better felt than telt!"

It actually occurred to me that the best way to teach a pattern would be to have the persons hand resting on mine so they could FEEL the direction changes, rather than just see them or hear them.

Anyway, this is basically a response to the idea "since oldtimers didn't talk analytically about patterns, they weren't capable of precisely transferring them".

But I admit that just on the basis of the video, it doesn't say what bowing data was being transferred- just that in effect you have a non-verbal bowing data "pipeline" straight to little John's subconscious.

BUT here's some indication of exactly what data was being transferred via that bowing data pipeline:

http://slippery-hill.com/M-K/GDAE/AMODAL/FineTimes.mp3

http://slippery-hill.com/M-K/GDAE/AMODAL/NoCorn-Summers.mp3

http://slippery-hill.com/M-K/GDAE/AMODAL/SameTime.mp3

http://slippery-hill.com/M-K/GDAE/D/Jaybird.mp3

What do you all hear as being the bowing strategies for each tune???

Edited by - fiddlepogo on 07/22/2012 22:55:43

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

I could start, since Tony mentioned "Martha Campbell." There is a video of me fiddling this tune (1 1/4 times through) here, but its a 40 MB download, and you'll have to wade through 5 minutes of other stuff:  http://www.mediafire.com/?alqw59acei1j85e  Sorry about the titling, I didn't do that.

So if you have a lot of time on your hands, go ahead and analyze the bowing. As far as my goals, I was trying to play like Doc Roberts, but its funny - I'd been reading some thread here about bowing, and at right about that point in the tune I started thinking about what I was doing (highly unusual for me) and almost messed up (there were also several good fiddlers in attendance at this show too, which was nerve wracking). This was the tail end of a medley with "Briarpicker Brown."

---

Now, the video is NO help because... the frame rate is so bad (unless it's my player screwing it up somehow) and jerky.

However, it's pretty obvious that it's mostly sawstroke, and it sounds to me like down-up sawstroke.

And it seems like you have a nice fluid sawstroke.

It's also a nice version of Martha Campbell.

That's al

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

Tony, more Doc Roberts here (as Doc Roberts, Doc Roberts Trio, and Fiddling Doc Roberts):  http://www.juneberry78s.com/otmsampler/otmsampat.html  One of my favorite fiddlers - "New Money" is a classic and "Cumberland Blues" is great too. I'm wanting to learn "And the Cat Came Back" after watching my friend Anna play it in this video:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQyPAw-lk9A

I think its possible that everybody learned "Martha Campbell" from the Doc Roberts record, but maybe not. It seems to be African American in origin.

Interesting that "Devil in Georgia" is really "Temperance Reel," not the Charlie Daniels tune!

---

Anna does a very nice job on "The Cat Came Back" BUT again the frame rate is so bad as to be useless in reading the bowing.

She does use a lot of sawstroke, and some Nashville.... but a lot of other stuff too... and the video is no help there.

Doc Roberts "Martha Campbell" is mostly sawstroke.

http://www.juneberry78s.com/otmsampler/308%20Fiddling%20Doc%20Roberts%20-%20Martha%20Campbell.mp3

Edited by - fiddlepogo on 07/23/2012 00:15:30

You could try and sawstroke that if want, good luck playing sawstrokes that fast and making it come out that smooth. Doc Roberts has been called a long bow fiddler (no that's not an exact  pattern) - and it certainly sounds to my ear he is not sawstroking, and myself (not an analytical pattern approach) would choose to bow it different than a saw stroke to get that sound, just using my ear and intuition and bow control knowledge.

IIRC - there are three other recordings Doc did of Martha Campbell; one (along with the above 1929 recording) I believe is in my Document Collection. The other I have read about I think Norm Cohen or Charles Wolfe mentioned in JEMF, a 1950's home recording; and then some other folklorist field recording in the sixties.

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 07/23/2012 03:05:57

George, the home recording by Doc's son James is at the DLA: I linked to it earlier in the thread:  http://dla.acaweb.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/berea/id/164/rec/1

The earlier, acoustic Gennett record is available here:  http://honkingduck.com/mc/listen/doc-roberts-edgar-boaz/martha-campbell  The sound quality is poor, but the playing is great, and there are no calls.

Ray Alden may have recorded Doc Roberts in the 1960's or 70's but I don't think I've heard those recordings, and its too late to ask Ray.

fiddlepogo -

I respectfully disagree with your conclusions. Now - listen - I’m not saying that little Johnny Summers didn’t learn some bowing techniques in this fashion. That would be silly – of course he did. But I still feel very strongly that his father did not sit him down on his knee with the idea – “I’m going to teach this boy how to play “bowing patterns”, like a piano teacher might set a student down and say I'm going to teach this child how to play scales – and have them play scales until they fell asleep at the keyboard.

There is no indication given - whatsoever - that he was teaching him bowing patterns separate from tunes. Without trying to be funny – Can you really imagine his father setting his little boy on his lap and saying, “OK son, tonight we are going to spend a few hours on the synco-shuffle.”  And little Johnny says –“Oh no, not the synco-shuffle again. Let’s do some more double shuffle, that’s so much more fun.” And to be honest – if that is what had happened - I really believe John Summers would have said so. At least that would be consistent with what I remember about the piano students complaints “It seemed all I ever played were scale exercises.” That is not what John said. He said he played tunes.

He father was teaching him how to play tunes, what they sounded like, what they felt like, and what it took to make the fiddle sing those tunes.  Were there any “patterns” transmitted in the process? Of course there were, but I doubt very seriously that his father ever even told him anything like – “Now, son – that was called the Nashville shuffle”. “But dad, I thought you said it was Old Joe Clark.”

I think if the point of this story had been to communicate the need for learning patterns, or the importance that his father felt for his son to learn “patterns”  – he would have made sure there was no doubt about how important it was to him or his father.

But that is my speculation. However, I think the video supports that contention much better that what you are suggesting. But I understand why you might not want to agree.

Fiddlepogo - Maybe there is something wrong with your player. The sync in Anna's video seems perfect to me - watch when they speak at the beginning and Joe's bass notes on the guitar. That's a high quality video, one reason I posted it, but it was really for Tony's enjoyment rather than analysis.

Our demo is not as good, although it seems to be in sync. I'm watching the original though, not a download. One of the reasons Martha Campbell is fun to play is the neat bowing - definitely more than just sawstroke.

Maybe your pattern system works better for you to choose bowing strategies for tunes you want to play than it does for analyzing other people's bowing. Its not very informative to say that Anna does "a lot of other stuff too." Maybe you should check the settings in your player - I don't know much about that sort of thing, but the video is very clear on my computer, although I'm not good at all about analyzing bowing.

I'm hoping to post some stuff on Martha Campbell tonight, or tomorrow night at the latest. I'm really wanting my effort to count for something - so I'll ask for patience if I go overboard, patience if I can't get it all done quickly, and patience with my less than perfect "performance" because I was in a hurry.

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

Fiddlepogo - Maybe there is something wrong with your player. The sync in Anna's video seems perfect to me - watch when they speak at the beginning and Joe's bass notes on the guitar. That's a high quality video, one reason I posted it, but it was really for Tony's enjoyment rather than analysis.

Our demo is not as good, although it seems to be in sync. I'm watching the original though, not a download. One of the reasons Martha Campbell is fun to play is the neat bowing - definitely more than just sawstroke.

Maybe your pattern system works better for you to choose bowing strategies for tunes you want to play than it does for analyzing other people's bowing. Its not very informative to say that Anna does "a lot of other stuff too." Maybe you should check the settings in your player - I don't know much about that sort of thing, but the video is very clear on my computer, although I'm not good at all about analyzing bowing.

---

Thanks Doug. I have watched that video of Anna before (along with several others she has on YouTube) - but I had forgotten about that one. It was good to be reminded. She is a very good - confident - fiddler.

I especially enjoyed watching it now because of John Schwab's book and CD I just got in the mail. After reading through his material I was able to better appreciate hearing  Joe talk about the guitar playing of Asa Martin backing up Doc Roberts. And I paid about as much attention to what he played as I did to Anna. The sound good together.

Yeah, I think there are phrases in the B part of Martha Campbell that just wouldn't sound it's best played with a straight saw-stroke. I guess it could be done, but it wouldn't have the same flavor.

Martha Campbell is one of those tunes that really helped me gain some confidence after learning it.

I haven't had time to watch or listen to the other file you offered. I intend to, but the past weekend was a pretty busy one for me. So, don't take my silence to mean anything more than - I just haven't had the time to spend with it yet. This evening.... 

Edited by - tonyelder on 07/23/2012 08:44:27

quote:

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Originally posted by tonyelder

fiddlepogo -

I respectfully disagree with your conclusions. Now - listen - I’m not saying that little Johnny Summers didn’t learn some bowing techniques in this fashion. That would be silly – of course he did. But I still feel very strongly that his father did not sit him down on his knee with the idea – “I’m going to teach this boy how to play “bowing patterns”, like a piano teacher might set a student down and say I'm going to teach this child how to play scales – and have them play scales until they fell asleep at the keyboard.

There is no indication given - whatsoever - that he was teaching him bowing patterns separate from tunes. Without trying to be funny – Can you really imagine his father setting his little boy on his lap and saying, “OK son, tonight we are going to spend a few hours on the synco-shuffle.”  And little Johnny says –“Oh no, not the synco-shuffle again. Let’s do some more double shuffle, that’s so much more fun.” And to be honest – if that is what had happened - I really believe John Summers would have said so. At least that would be consistent with what I remember about the piano students complaints “It seemed all I ever played were scale exercises.” That is not what John said. He said he played tunes.

He father was teaching him how to play tunes, what they sounded like, what they felt like, and what it took to make the fiddle sing those tunes.  Were there any “patterns” transmitted in the process? Of course there were, but I doubt very seriously that his father ever even told him anything like – “Now, son – that was called the Nashville shuffle”. “But dad, I thought you said it was Old Joe Clark.”

I think if the point of this story had been to communicate the need for learning patterns, or the importance that his father felt for his son to learn “patterns”  – he would have made sure there was no doubt about how important it was to him or his father.

But that is my speculation. However, I think the video supports that contention much better that what you are suggesting. But I understand why you might not want to agree.

 

---

YOU ARE MISSING MY WHOLE POINT!!!!

Of course he wasn't teaching patterns in a conscious, named way... but he WAS teaching some form of Syncoshuffle... more on that later.

His father:

1. put the passive bowing phase FIRST

2. spent two years on it.

Why put THAT kind of emphasis on bowing, unless you have something precise you want to convey to the kid?

I freely admit that the level of patterns I'm focusing on DIDN'T get named in the tradition... but they do crop up frequently-

especially Syncoshuffle.  But the name isn't necessary for teaching- when Tom Sauber TAUGHT me Syncoshuffle, he didn't call it ANYTHING... it was just like "This is something you need to know."  But he showed it to me stroke-by-stroke.

quote:

---

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

You could try and sawstroke that if want, good luck playing sawstrokes that fast and making it come out that smooth. Doc Roberts has been called a long bow fiddler (no that's not an exact  pattern) - and it certainly sounds to my ear he is not sawstroking, and myself (not an analytical pattern approach) would choose to bow it different than a saw stroke to get that sound, just using my ear and intuition and bow control knowledge.

IIRC - there are three other recordings Doc did of Martha Campbell; one (along with the above 1929 recording) I believe is in my Document Collection. The other I have read about I think Norm Cohen or Charles Wolfe mentioned in JEMF, a 1950's home recording; and then some other folklorist field recording in the sixties.

---

Kenny Baker certainly could make them come out that smooth- I SAW him sawstroking in about 1976 with Bill Monroe, and if I hadn't seen the obvious sawstroke motion, I would indeed have thought he was longbowing.

However... in Martha Campbell, Doc Roberts is nowhere near THAT smooth... he's using longer bow strokes for that distinctive Martha Campbell double stop.... but the rest, especially the last phrase in the first part is nearly all sawstroke. No, he doesn't have the scritch on every note that sawstrokers with lesser ability have, but the articulation is way too clear to be anything else- the notes come out like peas in a pod.

In that performance, I think Doc Roberts sawstroke would be about average among good Bluegrass fiddlers today.  And you have to have a flexible hold to do that.

The reason some might consider Roberts to be a long bow fiddler is "All Night Long".  THAT is definitely loaded with longbows, no question about that.

Also, there is ONE video of Doc Roberts on YouTube... it's very poor quality, and not good for precise analysis,  but you can see that on Tennessee Wagoner (like Martha Campbell, a fiddle tune, NOT a blues) his bowing strategy is "short bow", NOT long bow.

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

Fiddlepogo - Maybe there is something wrong with your player. The sync in Anna's video seems perfect to me - watch when they speak at the beginning and Joe's bass notes on the guitar. That's a high quality video, one reason I posted it, but it was really for Tony's enjoyment rather than analysis.

Our demo is not as good, although it seems to be in sync. I'm watching the original though, not a download. One of the reasons Martha Campbell is fun to play is the neat bowing - definitely more than just sawstroke.

Maybe your pattern system works better for you to choose bowing strategies for tunes you want to play than it does for analyzing other people's bowing. Its not very informative to say that Anna does "a lot of other stuff too." Maybe you should check the settings in your player - I don't know much about that sort of thing, but the video is very clear on my computer, although I'm not good at all about analyzing bowing.

---

I'm watching Anna's YouTube in Firefox on Linux...  I'll try it in Opera,

and then I'll go over to Windows and see if Windows Media Player handles your video better than the Linux player.

Pogo - Did Doc Roberts record "All Night Long?" Are you sure you're not thinking of Leonard Rutherford?

That video of ours is in Quicktime. There's a WMV version up there too that's better, but its huge -173 MB:  http://www.mediafire.com/?tcb03ho9siwp7k0

And an mp4, if you can play that, but its almost 100 MB:  http://www.mediafire.com/?t5sie4cinvx58x2

I wish I had a way to edit out just the fiddle tune, but I don't think I do now. Also wish I had the whole tune, but I don't, just that segment.

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

Fiddlepogo - Maybe there is something wrong with your player. The sync in Anna's video seems perfect to me - watch when they speak at the beginning and Joe's bass notes on the guitar. That's a high quality video, one reason I posted it, but it was really for Tony's enjoyment rather than analysis.

Our demo is not as good, although it seems to be in sync. I'm watching the original though, not a download. One of the reasons Martha Campbell is fun to play is the neat bowing - definitely more than just sawstroke.

Maybe your pattern system works better for you to choose bowing strategies for tunes you want to play than it does for analyzing other people's bowing. Its not very informative to say that Anna does "a lot of other stuff too." Maybe you should check the settings in your player - I don't know much about that sort of thing, but the video is very clear on my computer, although I'm not good at all about analyzing bowing.

---

Strange... Opera for Linux is doing a LOT better than Firefox for Linux on Anna's video!

She is using a LOT of different bowing strategies in that tune, and except for some sawstroke phrases, seldom stays on any one long enough to make them easy to read.  Nevertheless, I'm seeing:

Nashville (or possibly Offset Nashville- the motions look the same).

Sawstroke

Two note slurs

Georgia Shuffle...the first one I picked up on is the common Bluegrass way, but while listening a second time, I think I see her doing it the OTHER way too.

And she's doing long bows in that one section.... they may be, and from the sound I suspect they constitute some kind of longbow pattern... but I'm unfamiliar with longbow patterns for the most part.... I use one pattern that's four notes long and has no single strokes... that's the only one I'd think might qualify as being a longbow pattern.

no.... fiddlepogo, in my opinion - you are the one who is missing the point.

When I hear a tune I want to learn, I will listen closely and do my best to imitate what I hear. I will try to imitate the rhythm, the melody, and I will give thought to the bowing strategy that seems to work best for creating that very rhythm and melody I hear in my head.

If I struggle with a phrase, if I can't find a strategy that produces what I want to hear by listening, I will search for other clues or instructions that will help me. I usually start looking for visual clues, if audio clues aren't revealing what I want to know. I'll search YouTube videos, I'll use instructional DVD's, or search out other fiddlers that I think can help. But I will "discover" a way to play it, it might not be the best way to play it (in the beginning it rarely is), might not be the way you would play it (should I be concerned?), and there is every reason to believe it probably will change over time - when I hear something I like even better. Nothing is frozen, nothing chiseled in stone.

Now, will any of that produce a "syncoshuffle" in my playing? Yes, there is good chance that it probably will somewhere along the way, or at least something like it. How do I know? Because tunes are made up from patterns of rhythm and melody that are repeated - and many tunes have parts and pieces that are similar to the phrases in other tunes. They'll get played again - or something close to it. And if you say  "this tune is the best example of what a syncoshuffle sounds like" - and I decide to learn that tune (not the pattern), well -  guess what? So things like that are bound to happen.

Now the real question is - do I need to learn the names of any of those patterns and practice them isolated or separate from tunes I want to learn?

WHY should I?  OK, I understand - you (and others) think it is necessary for you to do that. BUT - WHY do you think it is necessary for me - or anyone else to do things the same way you do them? Why is my method of learning and playing tunes so foreign and unacceptable to you?

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

Fiddlepogo - Maybe there is something wrong with your player. The sync in Anna's video seems perfect to me - watch when they speak at the beginning and Joe's bass notes on the guitar. That's a high quality video, one reason I posted it, but it was really for Tony's enjoyment rather than analysis.

Our demo is not as good, although it seems to be in sync. I'm watching the original though, not a download. One of the reasons Martha Campbell is fun to play is the neat bowing - definitely more than just sawstroke.

Maybe your pattern system works better for you to choose bowing strategies for tunes you want to play than it does for analyzing other people's bowing. Its not very informative to say that Anna does "a lot of other stuff too." Maybe you should check the settings in your player - I don't know much about that sort of thing, but the video is very clear on my computer, although I'm not good at all about analyzing bowing.

---

I used Gnomeplayer on Greenleaf Symphony, and it did a lot better than the default player (I need to figure out how to switch that...).  The camera angle isn't good for analyzing bowing since the perspective causes "foreshortening", but based on the fact that it's way easier to recognize a pattern you know and use yourself, in addition to sawstroke, I see some Nashville, I think some 2-note value slurs (but played on long notes) and some long bows, especially on the double stops. 

You may not be conscious of it, but overall in this tune you seem to be using a downbowing strategy.

AND... it's very well played!

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

Pogo - Did Doc Roberts record "All Night Long?" Are you sure you're not thinking of Leonard Rutherford?

That video of ours is in Quicktime. There's a WMV version up there too that's better, but its huge -173 MB:  http://www.mediafire.com/?tcb03ho9siwp7k0

And an mp4, if you can play that, but its almost 100 MB:  http://www.mediafire.com/?t5sie4cinvx58x2

I wish I had a way to edit out just the fiddle tune, but I don't think I do now. Also wish I had the whole tune, but I don't, just that segment.

---

I'm going for the WMV version- I've got a good connection- it says "8 minutes"... that was one of the pluses of the last move- the connection is fiber optic instead of DSL.  The downside was I had to buy a new modem.

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

Fiddlepogo - Maybe there is something wrong with your player. The sync in Anna's video seems perfect to me - watch when they speak at the beginning and Joe's bass notes on the guitar. That's a high quality video, one reason I posted it, but it was really for Tony's enjoyment rather than analysis.

Our demo is not as good, although it seems to be in sync. I'm watching the original though, not a download. One of the reasons Martha Campbell is fun to play is the neat bowing - definitely more than just sawstroke.

Maybe your pattern system works better for you to choose bowing strategies for tunes you want to play than it does for analyzing other people's bowing. Its not very informative to say that Anna does "a lot of other stuff too." Maybe you should check the settings in your player - I don't know much about that sort of thing, but the video is very clear on my computer, although I'm not good at all about analyzing bowing.

---

Strange... Opera for Linux is doing a LOT better than Firefox for Linux on Anna's video!

She is using a LOT of different bowing strategies in that tune, and except for some sawstroke phrases, seldom stays on any one long enough to make them easy to read.  Nevertheless, I'm seeing:

Nashville (or possibly Offset Nashville- the motions look the same).

Sawstroke

Two note slurs

Georgia Shuffle...the first one I picked up on is the common Bluegrass way, but while listening a second time, I think I see her doing it the OTHER way too.

And she's doing long bows in that one section.... they may be, and from the sound I suspect they constitute some kind of longbow pattern... but I'm unfamiliar with longbow patterns for the most part.... I use one pattern that's four notes long and has no single strokes... that's the only one I'd think might qualify as being a longbow pattern.

 

---

I love her playing! Gotta learn that tune, too - just have about 50 on the list ahead of it. I thought the video was excellent. Watching the bow tip, it's really easy to tell what she's doing.

It seems that she is just bowing each measure the way the tune tells her to. Sure you can put a name on how she bows each measure, but she's just bowing the tune the  way it works for her, and each measure is pretty much different, depending on the tune.

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

Pogo - Did Doc Roberts record "All Night Long?" Are you sure you're not thinking of Leonard Rutherford?

---

You're right.

However, his bowing strategies DO change for the tune- Cumberland Blues for instance does use more long bows, but some single strokes too.

I was just listening to "New Money"

http://www.juneberry78s.com/otmsampler/225%20Doc%20Roberts%20-%20New%20Money.mp3

and it's a bit unusual in that the recording seems to hype the treble more than some of his other 78's.

(A lot of 78's seem to cut the treble instead)

This makes the bow's direction changes easier to hear.

In addition to sawstroke, I'm hearing two note slurs, and even a syncopated bowing similar to a Syncoshuffle (first one is at 8 seconds in)

In Waynesboro,

http://www.juneberry78s.com/otmsampler/309%20Fiddling%20Doc%20Roberts%20-%20Waynesboro.mp3

in addition to sawstroke, he's using yet a different pattern thrown in... first occurrence is 5 seconds in- it sounds something like Smoothshuffle- probably has at least one 3 note slur... it reminds me of Tommy Jarrell's same-direction bow-rocking too.

quote:

---

Originally posted by woodwiz

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

Fiddlepogo - Maybe there is something wrong with your player. The sync in Anna's video seems perfect to me - watch when they speak at the beginning and Joe's bass notes on the guitar. That's a high quality video, one reason I posted it, but it was really for Tony's enjoyment rather than analysis.

Our demo is not as good, although it seems to be in sync. I'm watching the original though, not a download. One of the reasons Martha Campbell is fun to play is the neat bowing - definitely more than just sawstroke.

Maybe your pattern system works better for you to choose bowing strategies for tunes you want to play than it does for analyzing other people's bowing. Its not very informative to say that Anna does "a lot of other stuff too." Maybe you should check the settings in your player - I don't know much about that sort of thing, but the video is very clear on my computer, although I'm not good at all about analyzing bowing.

---

Strange... Opera for Linux is doing a LOT better than Firefox for Linux on Anna's video!

She is using a LOT of different bowing strategies in that tune, and except for some sawstroke phrases, seldom stays on any one long enough to make them easy to read.  Nevertheless, I'm seeing:

Nashville (or possibly Offset Nashville- the motions look the same).

Sawstroke

Two note slurs

Georgia Shuffle...the first one I picked up on is the common Bluegrass way, but while listening a second time, I think I see her doing it the OTHER way too.

And she's doing long bows in that one section.... they may be, and from the sound I suspect they constitute some kind of longbow pattern... but I'm unfamiliar with longbow patterns for the most part.... I use one pattern that's four notes long and has no single strokes... that's the only one I'd think might qualify as being a longbow pattern.

 

---

I love her playing! Gotta learn that tune, too - just have about 50 on the list ahead of it. I thought the video was excellent. Watching the bow tip, it's really easy to tell what she's doing.

It seems that she is just bowing each measure the way the tune tells her to. Sure you can put a name on how she bows each measure, but she's just bowing the tune the  way it works for her, and each measure is pretty much different, depending on the tune.

---

HEY.... we AGREE ON SOMETHING!!!!  (I love her playing too!)  It's not the first time we've agreed, but it's been a while it seems, and it's nice for a change!

Yes, in one sense she IS bowing the tune the way it works for her, but in her I see someone who put in some time learning patterns so she can do it instinctively... the way she uses those patterns is very polished and precise, very controlled.. like she could play a tune all the way through with any one of those patterns, and subtle-ize it enough that it wouldn't be obnoxious.  Now, since Doug says he KNOWS her, maybe he can get her to "testify" as to how she learned to fiddle like THAT!

I was playing my fiddle on the 100 degree porch just now and something dawned on me.. Fiddlepogo and Tonyelder seem to have different definitions of exactly what is and what isn't a pattern.  I was thinking about the boy, sitting on his father's lap while the father repeatedly bowed fiddle tunes.  For two years this bowing happened.  IF the father was teaching the boy the same bow movements for  a particular tune and bowed it the same always so that the boy would learn the PATTERN for THAT tune, then yes, he was teaching patterns.  Within that pattern for the tune may have been sub-patterns that all added up the finished product.  

I have no interest in picking sides in this wonderful argument but I do know that in any discussion it is important to clarify terms.   I teach the basic 2-1-1 shuffle as a pattern, but then, when I fiddle I incorporate other bow movements until I get a PATTERN for the tune.  Some tunes don't seem to have what I call sub-patterns within the bow movements but there is still a general PATTERN that I use to play the tune.  Some would say that I am playing anywhichway, but that would only be true if we had defined exactly what that means.  So, I am an ANYWHICHWAY, musician who develops a PATTERN for each tune.  Of course I play around with that Pattern Anywhichway I can in order to enjoy the tune more.

I use the word 'pattern' with a very broad definition at times, but also use it to indicate very specific bow movements.  The heat must have gotten to me. 

LEE

Edited by - leemysliwiec on 07/23/2012 12:26:14

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Originally posted by tonyelder

no.... fiddlepogo, in my opinion - you are the one who is missing the point.

When I hear a tune I want to learn, I will listen closely and do my best to imitate what I hear. I will try to imitate the rhythm, the melody, and I will give thought to the bowing strategy that seems to work best for creating that very rhythm and melody I hear in my head.

If I struggle with a phrase, if I can't find a strategy that produces what I want to hear by listening, I will search for other clues or instructions that will help me. I usually start looking for visual clues, if audio clues aren't revealing what I want to know. I'll search YouTube videos, I'll use instructional DVD's, or search out other fiddlers that I think can help. But I will "discover" a way to play it, it might not be the best way to play it (in the beginning it rarely is), might not be the way you would play it (should I be concerned?), and there is every reason to believe it probably will change over time - when I hear something I like even better. Nothing is frozen, nothing chiseled in stone.

Now, will any of that produce a "syncoshuffle" in my playing? Yes, there is good chance that it probably will somewhere along the way, or at least something like it. How do I know? Because tunes are made up from patterns of rhythm and melody that are repeated - and many tunes have parts and pieces that are similar to the phrases in other tunes. They'll get played again - or something close to it. And if you say  "this tune is the best example of what a syncoshuffle sounds like" - and I decide to learn that tune (not the pattern), well -  guess what? So things like that are bound to happen.

Now the real question is - do I need to learn the names of any of those patterns and practice them isolated or separate from tunes I want to learn?

WHY should I?  OK, I understand - you (and others) think it is necessary for you to do that. BUT - WHY do you think it is necessary for me - or anyone else to do things the same way you do them? Why is my method of learning and playing tunes so foreign and unacceptable to you?

 

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I DO accept that different people learn differently.  Some people's brains are simply not wired for analyzing bowing, just like my brain doesn't seem to be wired for math and clerical speed and accuracy.  If that's the case, ya gotta do what ya gotta do to learn fiddle.

For one thing... you DO seem to have a tendency to take things I say personally when I'm meaning them generally.

For another, this pattern view of mine has been brewing for 24 of the 25 years I've been fiddling... although I've come to recognize some limitations... like it mostly seems to work in Bluegrass and Old Time.  Anyway, part of what I think happens here is that I'm the main advocate for patterns that's a regular part of the Fiddle Hangout.  I get outnumbered in these threads, and parrying this argument and that from 5 or 6 different people in a thread, I probably get defensive, definitely get hot-under-the-collar.

But time and time again, someone comes along, wants advice on bowing, and if I give it according to my views.... I get jumped on... time and time and time again!!!  You're not the first... and you probably won't be the last if I stick around here and don't croak soon.  The process of debate tends to move people away from the middle.... especially if the criticism is not done politely.

I'm actually pretty moderate in my views for a multipattern downbower... there are OTHERS far more narrow minded than I am.

Remember, I've been on the Fiddle Hangout since it started in 2007, and the first bowing thread took place only WEEKS after the FH started.... and I didn't even start it.

http://www.fiddlehangout.com/topic/233/1

Anyway.... when we get someone asking about bowing.... it would be REALLY nice if I had the freedom to just give my advice without it getting turned into a bowing debate.  If they can get it from something I say here, well, cool, but I know not everyone can.... a more likely option is to get a bowing video, and if they can't get that, well, they WILL have to just do it intuitively with whatever innate sense of rhythm they have.  Seat-of-the-pants.  Anywhichway.  Freestyle.  Whatever you wanna call it.

Part of the reason I share my views is that:

1.They aren't just my views.... a considerable number of people teach that way, and have learned that way.

2. I feel that for the discussion on the Fiddle Hangout to represent the bowing options that are out there, SOMEONE needs to stand up for multipattern bowing and downbowing, and at least a partly conscious analytical approach to bowing.

Let me put it this way... my posts balance out a fair number of anywhichway players that think that it is necessary for others to learn the same way THEY do.  Since they don't analyze, they think it's WRONG to analyze. And they tell me so, AGAIN AND AGAIN.  (if I had a dollar for every time...) Since they aren't conscious of patterns (except maybe Nashville), in their opinion it's wrong to be conscious of patterns on any level.  Need I say that I strongly disagree???

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Originally posted by fiddlepogo

One aspect that I well recall (relavent to some above comments) is how language and terminology is used by the informant; in a general, loose and figurative way; or in a tight, precise and liternal way. And as an example, "jiggy bow" "rag bow" "hokum shuffle" "shuffling".. - the terms are probably not used a a precise literal instruction; and rather as a loose, general, figurative reference (and often in reference to another's playing; not always in a respectful way)

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The way you say probably sounds like you are speculating. 

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Speculating? It sure seemed like that's what they were discussing, example they were using at the conference I was at (didn't know you were there). It gave me something to think about, and indeed, it shows up in reading these ethnological and folklorist materials (the whole text), listening to interviews, as well as my own interviews and conversations in how folks used (and use) terminology.

But I suppose it is speculating. Anthropology, ethnomusicology, as I understand it, is full of speculation. Of course that speculation comes from much a bit more than casual observation, and anecdotal sound bytes, and quick conclusions - observation, conversations, interviews, field work, research, weighing data and evidence, taking a broader overview in accounting for similarities and differences and examining other possibilities; keeps in mind things it might have missed; tests hypothesis, like science, which takes into account, and rethinks when evidence doesn't support (if this were so then how to explain...) - all that as to how they end up with a speculative conclusion.

So, no it's not surprising one finds reference's in terminology including the term "bow" - as most folks state with all these stringed instruments "it's all in the right hand"  - and for a fiddler the right hand is the bow. And not surprising fiddler's will talk about their, and others, bowing; and working on the bowing. But there are many aspects to bowing besides patterns up direction. Is it possible they weren't referring specifically to "bowing pattern" at all?

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As far as the John Summers video - we do seem love anecdotal stories like this. How much weight should it be given?

While one possibility is the father's purpose was to pass down an approach to fiddling that is based on bowing-patterns, and was teaching him bowing patterns. But there doesn't seem to be anything but speculation as to that's what he was doing; John never states it in any connection to any specific bowing patterns; and few other issues with this hypothisis.

Is it possible the purpose was just something else? What if his father was not a bow-pattern approach player, and was just directing young John the feel one or all of the other aspects; the rhythm, phrasing, control of slurs and accents, to match the sound of the with bow, and in the context of the tune.

Is it possible he wasn't even doing that, and something just much much more general?

So one thing I thing I can think about is that I have done a similar thing with my children (in other tasks as well as fiddling) - so my son is sitting on my lap and indeed I was fingering the notes, and guiding the bow with his hand. But I wasn't teaching patterns, nor particularly tunes, nor really a lot of controlling the bow, just a start. If you ever tried doing this, well, it's pretty clunky and there is only so much detail you can do this way; and it (in my case) seemed easier to strip the tune down to something easier to play.  Is it possible that's all John's father was doing?

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Originally posted by leemysliwiec

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I use the word 'pattern' with a very broad definition at times, but also use it to indicate very specific bow movements.  The heat must have gotten to me. 

LEE

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Yeah this debate has been going on for years now and I do think a lack of "definition" plays a large part in it.

The original pattern bowing thread that Dave Reiner started in the early days focused on eight not patterns all of which fit within a single measure.

I can never be sure what fiddlepogo is actually espousing, but in the early days I thought it was that one should learn some subset of these eight note patterns, then render every tune using some subset of the one's you learned.  Then there was the additional issue of using only patterns whose last note was on an up bow so that you could start the next measure on a down bow.  And that scheme is what I think fiddlepogo means by "multi-pattern down bowing" - though I'm sure he'll correct that if it's wrong.

An additional assumption in that early thread was that to get an accent you needed to change bow direction.  So, that placed an additional constraint on the eight note patterns.  But now that I've learned about the "pulsed up bow", or "hook bow", or the "potato bow" or whatever you want to call it, I know that you can generate accents on the same bow that sound much like those you generate by changing bow directions - and this permits an important degree of freedom in arranging where you want your down bows to be.

I doubt it's possible to fiddle dance music without generating some patterns.  After all dance fiddling is about rhythm and most rhythm relies on the interplay among rhythmic patterns.  On the other hand, I don't think patterns have to be divided up into eight note units.  There are some "idioms" like the Georgia shuffle that work that way but they are, IMO, the exception rather than the rule.

My own view about it is that there are just three basic bowings in American old time fiddling - the saw stroke, the two note slur, and the three note slur - and that you use these bowings in what ever manner you like to render a tune.  Then you have to add "bow rocking" and sounding "unisons" to the mix where the differences in sound between the open and stopped notes can be used to great effect.

And you use all this to generate the rhythmic patterns you like within the context of any specific tune.- and that's the fun of it.  So for me, starting off with a pre-conceived set of rhythmic patterns then fitting the tunes to them is bassackwards

On the other hand, fiddlepogo probably has just as much fun figuring out which set of pre-leaned eight note patterns he wants to employ in what combination to get the sound he wants when he encounters a new tune.  I think that's fine and I think fiddlepogo's fiddling sounds fine and for all I know he'll start an entirely new "school" of American OT fiddling called "multi-pattern downbowing".

The big mystery for me over the past several years is, "What exactly is this never ending argument about?"

--OTJ

Edited by - OTJunky on 07/23/2012 14:12:01