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Originally posted by woodwiz

Great idea, even if it's beer-soaked.  I vote we start with "Money Musk" in 5 parts, or maybe Jake Hockemeyer's version of Marmaduke's.

Seriously, Blackberry Blossom lends itself to lots of variation. I know half a dozen settings, and could probably find 20 more on YouTube........... Might be a good basis for comparison, but the melody as well as the bowing changes in most settings.

 

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I think we should just stick with The Old Blind Sow.  I say that because Money Musk is something that I don't already play.. A simple two part tune should suffice, don't you think?  (says Lee, as he gets nervous thinking he may have to learn a new tune and play it for others).. 

There has been ethnological contribution to these discussions, most noteably Fiddle_L forums (includes some pretty well respected ethnomusicologists); as well in AFS archives, articles, papers, lecture transcripts - about bowing, patterns and transmission of knowledge. I do recall a very interesting open disscussion forum at an AFS Annual Conference covering some this. One aspect that I well recall (relavent to some above comments) is how language and terminology is used by the informant; in a general, loose and figurative way; or in a tight, precise and liternal way. And as an example, "jiggy bow" "rag bow" "hokum shuffle" "shuffling".. - the terms are probably not used a a precise literal instruction; and rather as a loose, general, figurative reference (and often in reference to another's playing; not always in a respectful way) - As well, the terminology and concept of passing on the concept of "doing it right" - didn't necessarily mean a precise literal down to the detail replication; often a much more general concept, the overall concept of "right" - and for music, it sometimes was more in reference to not turning the music into something else (like pop, CW, Swing, Rock and roll) and keeping the original spirit and values alive.

One of the common ideas I get from from ethonomusicology, is not so much an precise explanation of what folks did, but exploring what are the possible explanations; and that sometimes you have back away from detail and look at context.

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Originally posted by leemysliwiec

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Originally posted by woodwiz

Great idea, even if it's beer-soaked.  I vote we start with "Money Musk" in 5 parts, or maybe Jake Hockemeyer's version of Marmaduke's.

Seriously, Blackberry Blossom lends itself to lots of variation. I know half a dozen settings, and could probably find 20 more on YouTube........... Might be a good basis for comparison, but the melody as well as the bowing changes in most settings.

 

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I think we should just stick with The Old Blind Sow.  I say that because Money Musk is something that I don't already play.. A simple two part tune should suffice, don't you think?  (says Lee, as he gets nervous thinking he may have to learn a new tune and play it for others).. 

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Just kidding about the first two - they're pretty hard and limited in how they can be bowed. I never heard Old Blind Sow until recently. The reason I suggested Blackberry Blossom is that it's a simple tune, lends itself well to rhythmic variation, and just about everybody across the country knows a version of it.

One aspect that I well recall (relavent to some above comments) is how language and terminology is used by the informant; in a general, loose and figurative way; or in a tight, precise and liternal way. And as an example, "jiggy bow" "rag bow" "hokum shuffle" "shuffling".. - the terms are probably not used a a precise literal instruction; and rather as a loose, general, figurative reference (and often in reference to another's playing; not always in a respectful way)

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The way you say probably sounds like you are speculating.  Tracy Schwarz had a basic fiddle method on LP in the 1950's and I asked him what the terms he used were.... IIRC he said that he used Nashville, Georgia and Sawstroke... but he did say that he got the term Nashville from an oldtimer guitarist in North Carolina (whose name I forget but that OTJ is familiar with) who talked about the "Nashville Windup", referring to the use of Nashville Shuffle on double stops or unisons as an intro to fiddle tunes for a square dance.  There's a specific reference for you.  Another example of specific ideas about bowing from a NON fiddler- Bill Monroe had very specific ideas as to how his fiddlers should play and sound, and I hear that they had to toe the line or they were OUT.  I saw a lot of Nashville in one of his fiddler's playing on YouTube, and a lot of smooth sawstroke in Kenny Bakers playing with him in the 1970's.  Whether or not he had terms to use, he was able to convey specifics about bowing to his fiddlers.  If a guitarist and a mandolin player could communicate with fiddlers who grew up in the Old Time tradition about bowing specifics, it seems odd that fiddlers themselves would be using bowing terms in a vague, figurative way.

Well, I have heard that "jig bowing" referred to sawstroke, which is pretty specific, and hokum shuffle is aka double Shuffle, again pretty specific.  Rag bow IIRC was mentioned in relation to 3-3-1-1.

There is also the possibility that vagueness could have to do with bowing patterns existing in related families.

Offset Nashville uses the same motions as Nashville, but it's like the timing chain slipped a tooth!  The motions are the same, you might mistake one for the other.

Brad Leftwich identifies 2 variants of Melvin's Shuffle

Georgia Shuffle has two variants of the backbeat version- one with the single note on an upstroke, and one with it on the downstroke.

There is also a variant where the single stroke is on the downbeat was apparently used in English fiddling, and I saw one example of it in the book Addie posted a link to on Scottish bowing.

Sometimes it's called "Downbeat Georgia Shuffle".  I call it the "Unshuffle" because it sounds rhythmic so straight that the effect isn't much like most shuffles.

Anyway, these are examples of things where it's very possible for a fiddler to use such terms with something specific in mind, but lack of consistency in terminology can cause confusion and vagueness as to what they mean.

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Originally posted by woodwiz

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Originally posted by leemysliwiec

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Originally posted by woodwiz

Great idea, even if it's beer-soaked.  I vote we start with "Money Musk" in 5 parts, or maybe Jake Hockemeyer's version of Marmaduke's.

Seriously, Blackberry Blossom lends itself to lots of variation. I know half a dozen settings, and could probably find 20 more on YouTube........... Might be a good basis for comparison, but the melody as well as the bowing changes in most settings.

 

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I think we should just stick with The Old Blind Sow.  I say that because Money Musk is something that I don't already play.. A simple two part tune should suffice, don't you think?  (says Lee, as he gets nervous thinking he may have to learn a new tune and play it for others).. 

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Just kidding about the first two - they're pretty hard and limited in how they can be bowed. I never heard Old Blind Sow until recently. The reason I suggested Blackberry Blossom is that it's a simple tune, lends itself well to rhythmic variation, and just about everybody across the country knows a version of it.

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Thanks for clearing that up Woodwiz.  I have company over the weekend and through Tuesday but maybe later in the week  I'd really like to offer up a tune for analysis so people can pick it apart as to technique, style  and bow patterns.  I am immune to criticism, for the most part,  when it comes to the tunes I play.  I do the best I can as do most fiddlers, I'm sure.  What I have in mind is not a contest to see how well a tune is played but rather maybe an expose' of fiddle styles.  That is why I think it would be important to have several versions of the SAME TUNE  to compare.  Maybe those who offer a version of the tune can talk about their approach to playing it so all of us 'experts' can  get insights as to what is involved in the fiddlers approach to the tune.   Then we can all compare our opinions of how the tune is being played (bow wise)...Even a novice can have nice bow patterns or a good method of playing so it is not a question of skill or experience.. Does anyone have any suggestions about this wild idea?  LEE

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Originally posted by woodwiz

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Originally posted by leemysliwiec

quote:

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Originally posted by woodwiz

Great idea, even if it's beer-soaked.  I vote we start with "Money Musk" in 5 parts, or maybe Jake Hockemeyer's version of Marmaduke's.

Seriously, Blackberry Blossom lends itself to lots of variation. I know half a dozen settings, and could probably find 20 more on YouTube........... Might be a good basis for comparison, but the melody as well as the bowing changes in most settings.

 

---

I think we should just stick with The Old Blind Sow.  I say that because Money Musk is something that I don't already play.. A simple two part tune should suffice, don't you think?  (says Lee, as he gets nervous thinking he may have to learn a new tune and play it for others).. 

---

Just kidding about the first two - they're pretty hard and limited in how they can be bowed. I never heard Old Blind Sow until recently. The reason I suggested Blackberry Blossom is that it's a simple tune, lends itself well to rhythmic variation, and just about everybody across the country knows a version of it.

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Thanks for clearing that up Woodwiz.  I have company over the weekend and through Tuesday but maybe later in the week  I'd really like to offer up a tune for analysis so people can pick it apart as to technique, style  and bow patterns.  I am immune to criticism, for the most part,  when it comes to the tunes I play.  I do the best I can as do most fiddlers, I'm sure.  What I have in mind is not a contest to see how well a tune is played but rather maybe an expose' of fiddle styles.  That is why I think it would be important to have several versions of the SAME TUNE  to compare.  Maybe those who offer a version of the tune can talk about their approach to playing it so all of us 'experts' can  get insights as to what is involved in the fiddlers approach to the tune.   Then we can all compare our opinions of how the tune is being played (bow wise)...Even a novice can have nice bow patterns or a good method of playing so it is not a question of skill or experience.. Does anyone have any suggestions about this wild idea?  LEE

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Originally posted by fiddlepogo

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Originally posted by tonyelder

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Originally posted by fiddlepogo

And some of the "old timers" got VERY LIVE, VERY PERSONAL demonstrations.... see the interview with John Summers on YouTube for an example of how he learned to bow from his father

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLStkKGmEmw

... oh yeah... the very fact his father taught him the way he did indicates that his father was PARTICULAR about bowing, that he felt there was a right and a wrong way, and that it was important to teach his son the RIGHT way.... definitely not a "whatever turn you on, man!" attitude.

Oh yeah... another thing we don't always keep in mind.  Medicine shows were a fairly common feature in rural areas, and I believe they were based in NASHVILLE.  One of the ladies in one of my audiences said she remembered her parents taking her to a medicine show, and that her parents and neighbors were VERY aware the medicine was worthless!  The reason they went was for the ENTERTAINMENT.   And any medicine bought was in effect to pay for the entertainment.  Could the term Nashville Shuffle have been spread or associated with fiddlers in medicine shows?  From what I have read, rural musicians were eager to learn new tunes and techniques and that was part of the medicine shows' ability to get a "foot in the door".

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I don't think the John Summers video supports your contention as well as you think. I didn't hear him say anything about learning bowing patterns separate from the tunes he was learning, and I didn't hear him name a single pattern. It sounded more like his dad was teaching him tunes, and how to handle the bow as he played the tunes, and to get him familiar with the what that felt like and sounded like.

At 1:05 he says, "After 2 years why ahh, he would finger the violin, and I'd do the bowing, see. I just got so aquainted with some of those old tunes; I'd do the bowing and he'd do the fingering." His dad started out by holding on to and directing his bowing hand. But after 2 years he didn't need to hold and direct his hand any more. He had learned how to do that on his own, but dad still needed to note the tunes for him.

Notice he didn't say anything about learning or mastering any patterns. He just got so aquainted with the old tunes. Sounds like he was teach his son how to play the tunes and not bowing patterns by name and separate from the tunes. And that is what I have been saying.

 

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Tony...

(pulling my hair out!!! well... almost!!!)

Going back to the language learning metaphor.

German is full of really complex patterns... like LATIN... like Russian. In English, we have only vestiges and exceptions.

A burly non-intellectual working class guy in the VW Wolfsburg plant can use those patterns PERFECTLY.

He learned them at his mammy's knee.

ME, I had to learn grammar and analyze and language labs and all this unnatural stuff, just so I could speak

German maybe 3/4 as well as the German working class guy!!!

Bowing pattern terminology is for the most part like studying grammar... it's kind of unnatural, I admit.

But patterns can exist whether you are even conscious of them or not.

The German working class guy probably never studied German grammar- the German schools test you early and direct you to different educational tracks, and he would have been in a trade-oriented track.  He can use German case and gender patterns perfectly AND HE DOESN'T EVEN KNOW HE'S DOING IT.

Can't you see, that with such a LITERALLY hands on approach, little John Summers was swallowing his daddy's bowing scheme WHOLE... without anything being named. Just like the German guy absorbed the complex patterns of the German grammar system whole.  And the fact that his dad chose this way of teaching him indicates that his dad was PARTICULAR about how bowing should be done.  Like he had some kind of ORDERLY way of doing it, something he had worked out that he felt was important.

Anyway, because of the availability of such intense learning possibilities in a living tradition, in most cases, TALKING about patterns was unnecessary to transfer them from father to son, and possibly from grandfather to grandson, if the grandfather lived in the same house or nearby.  So I'm basically saying that:

ABSENCE of PATTERN TALK does NOT mean there are no patterns... only that they weren't talked about.

And yet.... there was SOME talk of patterns in the tradition

Kentucky Bow, Georgia Bow, Rag Bow, Nashville Windup, Hokum Bow seem to be older terms

for 2 note slurs, Georgia Shuffle, Smoothshuffle, Nashville Shuffle and Double Shuffle.

But those kind of terms wouldn't be needed to transfer even a complex bowing scheme from father to a young son.

BTW, the reason why Summers didn't play the fingering till later was that the fiddle was too big for him... they didn't have a sized fiddle available, and that was the father's work-around for that, to break down fiddling into right hand and left hand parts.

 

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My, my.  Michael - I'm sure this is not going to mean anything to you  - but  instead of pulling my hair out - I'll just say I'm disappointed in your response.

You did not speak to the point at all. You cleverly side stepped it - again.

It would be EASY to use your language analogy to show that your "pattern" methods aren't necessarily going to be the best method nor only available option for learning languages either. I don't doubt your personal experience - but your experience is not universal - and doesn't apply in every situation. Shall we dance?

From what I have learned of you so far - You are a pattern bower who advocates learning patterns divorced from any tunes so that you can apply them to the tunes you want to learn. IOW, you want to - feel compelled to , think it is necessary to - fit any and every tune you are learning into a preconceived, learned, mastered bowing pattern - that you have names for. That every fiddle tune neatly fits in to as few as 6 patterns. Learn those and you can play any Old Time tune with the same authority as any of the old masters. That's all they did. And if you can't use at least 2 - you ain't really fiddling Old Time.

I believe that there are unique bowing patterns in every tune that are related to rhythm and melody. Many of them are very similar to other tunes, sometimes they are even the same. But all of those patterns are best heard, learned, and mastered within the context of the tunes that you are wanting to play. The pattern doesn't need to be learned separate from the tunes - AND I submit that for the old time masters (dead guys) - if it ever was a separate exercise - it was not common experience.

Now go back and watch that video again - and closely listen to every single word he says. Tell me exactly  - what it is you hear in the monologue given by John Summers that makes you think he was learning pattern bowing and not tunes. I HEAR NO NO EVIDENCE THAT VALIDATES OR CONFIRMS THAT HE WAS BEING TAUGHT BOWING PATTERNS BY NAME - INDEPENDENT OF TUNES.  HE WAS LEARNING TO PLAY TUNES!!!  His dad was teaching him how to play tunes! That is what he said!

Any thing you think might have been meant or implied in the video is nothing more than your personal speculation if it wasn't clearly stated - unless you can provide other supporting evidence based on other information. Cause it ain't on this video.

Now, go on - pull out the rest of your hair! 

Edited by - tonyelder on 07/22/2012 01:44:55

I was planning to do something similar to what you guys are suggesting. But without having made a public commitment to the task, I don't know that I would have followed through.

I have about 10 different versions of Martha Campbell. Listening to each of them I can tell that they are the same tune, but they are differences. Some more "notey", some have a slightly different melody - enough to figure it was a local version or someone attempt to play their own way. Me? I favor the simpler version that has the most drive to it.

I was going to upload short samples of each of the versions, then upload my favorite version with me dubbed over, and then upload me playing without the background.

2 dangers in this as I see it - My favorite version of a tune, the one that I learned from, is probably not going to be everyone else's favorite version. So a person listening to what I am playing might want to judge what I do poorly because they don't prefer that version of the tune.

Which leads to the second potential problem - This shouldn't be about "who plays the best fiddle". With only a few years of playing fiddle, I doubt that I would do well against you guys with 20 years of experience. Instead, this should be more about who's played version of a tune comes the closest to sounding like the version they are learning from, and what method did they use to learn it. And within the context of our discussion about bowing patterns, that would mean - will you / did you use a pre-conceived named bowing pattern that you have already mastered and fit the tune to that pattern? Or did you just listen to the tune and then work on determining a bowing strategy that you think sounds most like your favorite version or source recording? So the judgement is not who is the best fiddler, but which learning method is able to best capture the essence of the version you are learning from? Who version sounds the most like the version they are learning from?

Just curious, tony - what is your favorite version of Martha Campbell?

I would like to re-state something else, because it seems that somethings are getting lost in the discussion again. They seem to get lost through the lens of - if you don't learn patterns separate from tunes, and know the names (or give them names) then you are anti-patterns, opposed to patterns, don't believe in patterns, anywhichway bower.

And that is not correct. As I have stated many times - when I am learning a tune the bowing strategy that I end up using will just about always involve patterns - several kinds of patterns. Each tune uses patterns in both rhythm and melody. They are all unique patterns - that's what make one tune different from all the others. But many times tunes will have elements and patterns that are similiar to other tunes - sometimes they are very simliar (if not the same). So, you aren't always starting from scratch each time. You take what you know and you adapt. I don't think in terms of "what patterns do I need to use" when learning tunes. That does not mean I don't use patterns or don't believe there are any patterns.

That is a lot different than learning a syncoshuffle separate from a tune and then making a tune fit that pattern. This is only a method that some folks think is important because they feel like it gives them the best results for their efforts. I don't have any problems with that.

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Originally posted by DougD

Just curious, tony - what is your favorite version of Martha Campbell?

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The Tallboys off of "Yeah Buddy". I like several tunes off of their CD's.

Them being a contemporary string band, I'm sure there version doesn't past the "traditional" test. But it sure does have drive and rhythm. And fairly straightforward barebones version. Good for me.

Thanks. I like that band too, but their version of that tune would not be my favorite. I like Buddy Thomas', and especially Doc Roberts - he played a lot of variations. His commercial 78 recording has calls on it, which is distracting, but I just found this home recording made by his son at the DLA that's real nice:  http://dla.acaweb.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/berea/id/164/rec/1  Lots of nice bowing in that tune.

Re: the German analogy.  I lived in Germany, and was fluent enough after just 6 months to work as an interpreter for the military. When I came back to the US my skills were at post-grad level, and I won some academic awards in college without any effort at all. Instead of studying patterns in a classroom, I learned to speak the language the way a little kid does, by speaking it on the street, phrase by phrase. ("Ich moechte / haette gerne..." Wo gibt's..."  "Wo findet Man..") I did spend a lot of time on my own with a dictionary, and reading dual-language books.. If I had spent my time in a classroom learning all the rules (and the exceptions, of which there are more than there are rules) I wouldn't have fared near as well. As it was, after a year and a half, I cold almost pass as native for a little while, until I ran in to vocabulary limitations. The conclusion I would draw from that experience is, "Just play the music." Every new tune you learn will teach you new skills, just as every new German expression I learned taught me new skills.  Language and music are both built on phrases much more than they are built on individual words, and if you learn the language phrase by phrase, the grammar comes automatically. Just a thought.

Regarding learning a new tune for style comparisons: If I learn a new tune, and it's relatively straightforward, I'll probably try to play it two or three different ways with different bowing, melody, and phrasing, depending on what the tune itself suggests, but it takes quite a while to get a tune in my head solidly enough that I can play with it that way. That's why I thought there might be an advantage in using a tune that's really familiar to a lot of people.

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Originally posted by DougD

Thanks. I like that band too, but their version of that tune would not be my favorite. I like Buddy Thomas', and especially Doc Roberts - he played a lot of variations. His commercial 78 recording has calls on it, which is distracting, but I just found this home recording made by his son at the DLA that's real nice:  http://dla.acaweb.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/berea/id/164/rec/1  Lots of nice bowing in that tune.

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Thanks Doug!

Outstanding. I didn't have a Doc Roberts version.

And, having listen to it, I would be willing to bet that his version is what the Tallboys were playing. The only thing I don't hear in the Tallboy's version is the slides. But the basic melody and how it is played is pretty darn close to being the same. In fact, I think it would be fairly easy for me to dub over his version and claim that I've learned an old time version correctly. I'm sure there would be a few comments, but I don't think my bowing would be off by much.

I only have a few of Doc Roberts tunes. This makes me want to look for more.

Thanks again.

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Originally posted by leemysliwiec

 

You wrote: Regarding learning a new tune for style comparisons: If I learn a new tune, and it's relatively straightforward, I'll probably try to play it two or three different ways with different bowing, melody, and phrasing, depending on what the tune itself suggests, but it takes quite a while to get a tune in my head solidly enough that I can play with it that way. That's why I thought there might be an advantage in using a tune that's really familiar to a lot of people. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- How about Mississippi Sawyer?  Who doesn't know that tune?  LEE

 

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 ....me.    sorry. But y'all go on.

How important is it for everyone to be playing the same tune?  I can think of reasons to avoid that.

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Originally posted by tonyelder

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Originally posted by leemysliwiec

 

You wrote: Regarding learning a new tune for style comparisons: If I learn a new tune, and it's relatively straightforward, I'll probably try to play it two or three different ways with different bowing, melody, and phrasing, depending on what the tune itself suggests, but it takes quite a while to get a tune in my head solidly enough that I can play with it that way. That's why I thought there might be an advantage in using a tune that's really familiar to a lot of people. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- How about Mississippi Sawyer?  Who doesn't know that tune?  LEE

 

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 ....me.    sorry. But y'all go on.

How important is it for everyone to be playing the same tune?  I can think of reasons to avoid that.

 

 

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It is not important.  It was just a suggestion..  OK   I submit the original tune of mine called JESUS PLAYED THE FIDDLE.   It can be found on my home page music section.  Pick it apart, comment on my style and make as many observations about bow usage as needed.   I agree that this should not be considered a contest, but rather an opportunity to discuss various bowing styles.    LEE

Edited by - leemysliwiec on 07/22/2012 15:38:41

Tony, more Doc Roberts here (as Doc Roberts, Doc Roberts Trio, and Fiddling Doc Roberts):  http://www.juneberry78s.com/otmsampler/otmsampat.html  One of my favorite fiddlers - "New Money" is a classic and "Cumberland Blues" is great too. I'm wanting to learn "And the Cat Came Back" after watching my friend Anna play it in this video:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQyPAw-lk9A

I think its possible that everybody learned "Martha Campbell" from the Doc Roberts record, but maybe not. It seems to be African American in origin.

Interesting that "Devil in Georgia" is really "Temperance Reel," not the Charlie Daniels tune!

Edited by - DougD on 07/22/2012 15:55:25

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Originally posted by tonyelder

I was planning to do something similar to what you guys are suggesting. But without having made a public commitment to the task, I don't know that I would have followed through.

I have about 10 different versions of Martha Campbell. Listening to each of them I can tell that they are the same tune, but they are differences. Some more "notey", some have a slightly different melody - enough to figure it was a local version or someone attempt to play their own way. Me? I favor the simpler version that has the most drive to it.

I was going to upload short samples of each of the versions, then upload my favorite version with me dubbed over, and then upload me playing without the background.

2 dangers in this as I see it - My favorite version of a tune, the one that I learned from, is probably not going to be everyone else's favorite version. So a person listening to what I am playing might want to judge what I do poorly because they don't prefer that version of the tune.

Which leads to the second potential problem - This shouldn't be about "who plays the best fiddle". With only a few years of playing fiddle, I doubt that I would do well against you guys with 20 years of experience. Instead, this should be more about who's played version of a tune comes the closest to sounding like the version they are learning from, and what method did they use to learn it. And within the context of our discussion about bowing patterns, that would mean - will you / did you use a pre-conceived named bowing pattern that you have already mastered and fit the tune to that pattern? Or did you just listen to the tune and then work on determining a bowing strategy that you think sounds most like your favorite version or source recording? So the judgement is not who is the best fiddler, but which learning method is able to best capture the essence of the version you are learning from? Who version sounds the most like the version they are learning from?

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Lee - I guess we could submit whatever we want to submit for consideration with an explanation of why we are offering it. An original tune would be good to discuss.

But I was hoping we could do is first choose an existing tune we like (maybe one we already know) and a version of that tune which had an appeal to us.  Discuss why we chose that particular version to learn. And then offer our interpretation or imitation (whatever) that favorite version and discuss what methods we used to learn it and what we were trying to accomplish with the finished work.

quote:

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Originally posted by tonyelder

quote:

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Originally posted by tonyelder

I was planning to do something similar to what you guys are suggesting. But without having made a public commitment to the task, I don't know that I would have followed through.

I have about 10 different versions of Martha Campbell. Listening to each of them I can tell that they are the same tune, but they are differences. Some more "notey", some have a slightly different melody - enough to figure it was a local version or someone attempt to play their own way. Me? I favor the simpler version that has the most drive to it.

I was going to upload short samples of each of the versions, then upload my favorite version with me dubbed over, and then upload me playing without the background.

2 dangers in this as I see it - My favorite version of a tune, the one that I learned from, is probably not going to be everyone else's favorite version. So a person listening to what I am playing might want to judge what I do poorly because they don't prefer that version of the tune.

Which leads to the second potential problem - This shouldn't be about "who plays the best fiddle". With only a few years of playing fiddle, I doubt that I would do well against you guys with 20 years of experience. Instead, this should be more about who's played version of a tune comes the closest to sounding like the version they are learning from, and what method did they use to learn it. And within the context of our discussion about bowing patterns, that would mean - will you / did you use a pre-conceived named bowing pattern that you have already mastered and fit the tune to that pattern? Or did you just listen to the tune and then work on determining a bowing strategy that you think sounds most like your favorite version or source recording? So the judgement is not who is the best fiddler, but which learning method is able to best capture the essence of the version you are learning from? Who version sounds the most like the version they are learning from?

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Lee - I guess we could submit whatever we want to submit for consideration with an explanation of why we are offering it. An original tune would be good to discuss.

But I was hoping we could do is first choose an existing tune we like (maybe one we already know) and a version of that tune which had an appeal to us.  Discuss why we chose that particular version to learn. And then offer our interpretation or imitation (whatever) that favorite version and discuss what methods we used to learn it and what we were trying to accomplish with the finished work.

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Maybe we could just pick a tune that is already "out there" and just try to make informed comments about it.  That way nobody is put on the spot.  This should not be hard.  Instead of commenting theoretically as has been done we could just comment about an existing piece.  ANY tune could be used.    It doesn't have to be a tune that any of US is playing.  LEE  

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Originally posted by DougD

Tony, more Doc Roberts here (as Doc Roberts, Doc Roberts Trio, and Fiddling Doc Roberts):  http://www.juneberry78s.com/otmsampler/otmsampat.html  One of my favorite fiddlers - "New Money" is a classic and "Cumberland Blues" is great too. I'm wanting to learn "And the Cat Came Back" after watching my friend Anna play it in this video:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQyPAw-lk9A

I think its possible that everybody learned "Martha Campbell" from the Doc Roberts record, but maybe not. It seems to be African American in origin.

Interesting that "Devil in Georgia" is really "Temperance Reel," not the Charlie Daniels tune!

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Ha. Right after I responded to you I went and listened to his "And The Cat Came Back The Very Next Day".

I learned the tune on mandolin from Norman Blake's version on "Far Away, On A Georgia Farm".  I can butcher it on fiddle. It would be worth spending some more time on. It's one of the tunes I chip away at a little at a time, thinking one day it will come together.

Thanks for the links Doug!  Very much appreciated.

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Originally posted by leemysliwiec

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Originally posted by tonyelder

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Originally posted by tonyelder

I was planning to do something similar to what you guys are suggesting. But without having made a public commitment to the task, I don't know that I would have followed through.

I have about 10 different versions of Martha Campbell. Listening to each of them I can tell that they are the same tune, but they are differences. Some more "notey", some have a slightly different melody - enough to figure it was a local version or someone attempt to play their own way. Me? I favor the simpler version that has the most drive to it.

I was going to upload short samples of each of the versions, then upload my favorite version with me dubbed over, and then upload me playing without the background.

2 dangers in this as I see it - My favorite version of a tune, the one that I learned from, is probably not going to be everyone else's favorite version. So a person listening to what I am playing might want to judge what I do poorly because they don't prefer that version of the tune.

Which leads to the second potential problem - This shouldn't be about "who plays the best fiddle". With only a few years of playing fiddle, I doubt that I would do well against you guys with 20 years of experience. Instead, this should be more about who's played version of a tune comes the closest to sounding like the version they are learning from, and what method did they use to learn it. And within the context of our discussion about bowing patterns, that would mean - will you / did you use a pre-conceived named bowing pattern that you have already mastered and fit the tune to that pattern? Or did you just listen to the tune and then work on determining a bowing strategy that you think sounds most like your favorite version or source recording? So the judgement is not who is the best fiddler, but which learning method is able to best capture the essence of the version you are learning from? Who version sounds the most like the version they are learning from?

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Lee - I guess we could submit whatever we want to submit for consideration with an explanation of why we are offering it. An original tune would be good to discuss.

But I was hoping we could do is first choose an existing tune we like (maybe one we already know) and a version of that tune which had an appeal to us.  Discuss why we chose that particular version to learn. And then offer our interpretation or imitation (whatever) that favorite version and discuss what methods we used to learn it and what we were trying to accomplish with the finished work.

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Maybe we could just pick a tune that is already "out there" and just try to make informed comments about it.  That way nobody is put on the spot.  This should not be hard.  Instead of commenting theoretically as has been done we could just comment about an existing piece.  ANY tune could be used.    It doesn't have to be a tune that any of US is playing.  LEE  

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 Sounds reasonable to me. I will give an effort to do what I had mentioned above. It won't happen "real quick" - but I'll head in that direction.

Tony, since you started the thread, I suggest that you just "go for it"   Pick or play a tune and start a dialogue about the bowing style that you use or hear... I don't doubt that others will jump aboard with comments.  It'll be fun.. LEE

I could start, since Tony mentioned "Martha Campbell." There is a video of me fiddling this tune (1 1/4 times through) here, but its a 40 MB download, and you'll have to wade through 5 minutes of other stuff:  http://www.mediafire.com/?alqw59acei1j85e  Sorry about the titling, I didn't do that.

So if you have a lot of time on your hands, go ahead and analyze the bowing. As far as my goals, I was trying to play like Doc Roberts, but its funny - I'd been reading some thread here about bowing, and at right about that point in the tune I started thinking about what I was doing (highly unusual for me) and almost messed up (there were also several good fiddlers in attendance at this show too, which was nerve wracking). This was the tail end of a medley with "Briarpicker Brown."

To avoid all the embarassment, etc, how 'bout discussing the bowing in this-

What do YOU hear?

Carol Hascall, traditional Missouri fiddler:

http://slippery-hill.com/M-K/GDAE/A/SpottedPony.mp3