Hi there,

When trying to incorporate slurs into songs, is it really just a feel thing you get better at as you go or is there a trick to when they work better (i.e. downbow v. upbow?).  My teacher tells me where to put them in sometimes but sometimes it doesn't feel natural, then other times I just play them without really thinking.

Thoughts?  Thanks!

Lauren the Fiddling Lawyer

You'll get alot of responses on this. How you group your notes(slurs) is very much like how you speak. It's how you string your words together, where you take a breath and how you accent your syllables. When you change bow direction, you are adding a percussive accent. In the beginning it seems like there are limitless possibilites but within the different fiddle styles there are loosely defined phrasings that make that style sound the way it does. Some phrasings will begin to sound more right than others. Listen alot and you'll learn the language and phrasing of the style you're after. Practice alot of different phrasings and bowings, it's not a fixed thing.

Hi Lauren, Peghead struck it right on the head.  The more you play, the more comfortable you'll become, and what you wish to "say" with your instrument will come without thinking. Don't be afraid to plot them out when working up a new tune or to add them to an old favorite, that can put new life in to some of these chestnuts.  If they work...keep 'em, if not drop or move them. For me fiddling should never be static....be bold, make a tune YOURS!

Now about this legal problem I'm having.......

Hi Lauren..am sure you realize how slurs smooth out a tune.just put them in where you like the sound and feel.that's how I teach my students any how. good luck and keep sawin George

Four thoughts from my own experiences as a very-much-still-learning fiddler:

Edited by - ajisai on 06/19/2012 13:20:24

That's good advice.  I can think of two good reasons to slur: Bowing correction and sound or phrasing.

In Old Time fiddling, timing and drive are paramount, and a lot of people find it works well to bow down on most every beat to give the music more drive.  Well, that works fine when you are playing straight eighth or sixteenth notes, but when you start dropping in some single eighth notes or dotted eights, even quarter notes, your bowing's gonna get turned around, and you might want to slur two notes to get back "on the beat".

Then sometimes, a series of notes just sound better slurred, or better to say, sound more the way you want them to sound. There are all kinds of rhythmic effects that come from slurring in the various kinds of shuffles - Nashville shuffle, Georgia bowing, as well as non-pattern slurring. There are tunes that just cry out for certain notes to be slurred.

Best thing I can recommend is to listen to a lot of good players in your chosen style, and analyze their bowing, and duplicate some of their licks, both saw stroke and with slurs, and figure it out for yourself. With fiddling, certain techniques give certain texture to your music, but it's up to you to choose how you want to sound, and use the techniques that work to get there.

Your teacher just wants you to be creative and experiment all the while learning how to slur.

The more you play, you will find that slurs create "shortcuts" for your playing. Just keep playing and they will come naturally!

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlekid

The more you play, you will find that slurs create "shortcuts" for your playing. Just keep playing and they will come naturally!

---

IMHO, that's the worst reason in the world to choose to slur.  I had that approach for a while, and it set my playing back quite a bit. I think it's better to slur only with specific intent and purpose. YMMV, of course. You can slur a lot, or not at all, but there should be a reason for it.

As an extreme example, there was a kid in the shop a few months back who played bluegrass and OT, but when he played fiddle tunes, he played 1 to 2 beats (4 to 8 notes) per bow - as a shortcut - and he played fast, but his playing was painfully boring to listen to because it had no drive or life.

Thoughts on slurs:

1. Slurs are often used to deemphasize the slurred notes so that whatever is left as a single note will "pop out" in comparison.
2. Slurs take phrasing (for the duration of the slur) away from the bowing arm, and make it the responsibility of the left hand. Perhaps your left hand is lagging and not feeling ready for this new responsibility.
3. Slurs come in three common and convenient lengths: 2 note, 3 note, and 4 note slurs (in relation to the shortest note played in a tune). 2 note slurs are easiest both to count and control, and also to conceptualize what is going on. 3 note slurs can be challenging to the mind since they cross measure lines and mid-measure lines. 3 note slurs in a tune in 4/4 or 2/4 also can be used to express a raggy or syncopated feeling, but you have to phrase them correctly to do that- if not phrased correctly they just sound bad. In a waltz or a jig, 3 note slurs are no longer so conceptually difficult, since they are either a whole measure or half a measure respectively. 4 note slurs also can cross measure lines, but being simple two times as long as a two note slur may be easier to conceptualize, but on a long slur you are more likely to either run out of bow or at least get to a place on the bow that you find harder to control. This is good practice for your bow control.  Slurs can of course last longer than 4 notes, but at that point they are no longer common or convenient- for one thing, you'll use enough of the bow that you'll need GOOD bow control... so they aren't really something for beginners.

One convenient way of practicing slurs is to practice them as part of a pattern. By practicing the pattern, you are also practicing any slurs it contains, and their phrasing in the context of the single notes surrounding it.

A very common and easy slurring strategy is a series of two note slurs. I found this rather boring when I was starting out, and quickly moved on to more complex patterns, but it turns out it's really common in Kentucky and West Virginia fiddling. We have a West Virginian here in town who moved out to be near his grandkids. He played fiddle as a boy, although he mostly plays banjo and harmonica now- but when he plays fiddle, he gets a phrasing on 2 note slurs that I envy- I wish I could make them sound that good!!!

Now, you are from Texas, and there is an aficionado of Texas-style fiddling here on the Hangout who says that phrases with two-note OFFBEAT slurs are really common in Texas fiddling. Instead of the first note in the slur being the accented note, it's the second note- and it gives a REALLY different feel. Dave Reiner says that it's a common strategy in rags. It's not easy at the beginning, either conceptually OR getting the feel.

Edited by - fiddlepogo on 06/19/2012 18:02:06

Nice explanations, fiddlepogo. Classical players/editors commonly follow some conventional slur groupings, based in part on ease of string changes. So those with classical training, as they advance in their fiddle playing, should give heed to whether what feels right fits the fiddle style being learned. You're safer, imo, early on, to single-bow everything. If you want to try to recreate someone's version, learn to listen deeply and you should be able to hear bowings in recorded tunes. Generally you can't hear direction, but you can go with the downbow for downbeat concept. Sue

Please excuse my question here, but I am a newbie......what exactly is a slur??

quote:

---

Originally posted by 1fiddlediddler

Please excuse my question here, but I am a newbie......what exactly is a slur??

---

slur = 2 or more notes in one bow.

quote:

---

Originally posted by 1fiddlediddler

Please excuse my question here, but I am a newbie......what exactly is a slur??

---

No excuse needed... I played the fiddle for a long time before I knew what a "slur" is or was. 

It's simply playing more than one note with a single bow stroke. 

I will add to this topic that in SW Pa on down into central WV  (and maybe other places along the "western appalachians") that many fiddlers did/do a lot of long "slurs" on the tunes. 2 3 4 5 6 maybe even seven notes at a time.  

It took me a while to get slurs down but now I just put them in songs where I either hear them while trying to figure out a tune or just put them in while improvising.  Basically experiment and fun with it.  If it sounds good in certain tunes then go with it. That's what I do.

quote:

---

Originally posted by LaurenKilgore

Hi there,

When trying to incorporate slurs into songs, is it really just a feel thing you get better at as you go or is there a trick to when they work better (i.e. downbow v. upbow?).  My teacher tells me where to put them in sometimes but sometimes it doesn't feel natural, then other times I just play them without really thinking.

Thoughts?  Thanks!

Lauren the Fiddling Lawyer

---

 http://www.theviolinsite.com/lessons/3-octave-scales-separate.html      Her 

Some "downbowers" define that term as "downbowing the beat notes".  But it is sometimes used to mean "downbowing the accented notes" (which may or may not be on the beats).  I think I tend to be mostly in this latter category of fiddler.

One of the main things slurs can do for you is to make it easier to accent some notes and de-emphasize other notes.  An easy way to see this is to experiment with alternating single notes with three-note slurs.  If you move the bow the same distance for the 3-slurs as for the single notes, the single notes will be much louder than the slurred notes (because that whole bowing length has to be done in one-third as much time for the single notes, so the bow has to move three times faster past the string, and that makes it louder).  So you get an almost automatic very strong accent on the single notes.

If you start the measure with a single note, followed by a 3-slur, followed by another single note, and finishing the measure with another 3-slur, the single notes will fall on the 1st and 5th notes of the measure, so your accents will be on the two beats of the measure.  (I call that pattern the "on-beat Georgia shuffle"; Pogo calls it the "unshuffle").  It kind of has a "marchy feel".

On the other hand, if you start a 3-slur on the last note (note number 8) of the preceding measure, and slur it into the 1st and 2nd notes of the following measure, then bow a single note, and then continue that 3-1 pattern, then the single notes will occur on the two off-beats of the measure (the 3rd and the 7th notes of the measure), and so the off-beats will get strongly accented, rather than the beats.  (That pattern is called the "Georgia shuffle").  It gives a highly syncopated feel.

In both cases, most people play the single notes with a downbow, and the 3-slurs with an upbow.

It's probably rare for a fiddler to play one of these two patterns for every measure of a tune ... it gets old and boring if overdone.  But they are a very nice thing to have in your toolbox, to mix and match with each other, and with other, less un-balanced patterns.

3-slurs are also commonly used in other (less highly accented) patterns, often with only one 3-slur per measure (and the rest single-bowed notes), and often with two 3-slurs played adjacent to each other (bowed in opposite directions).

One big advantage of 3-slurs is that they can be substituted ANYWHERE for three contiguous single-bowed notes, without changing the downstream bowing direction.  That makes them very versatile, and very useful.

Edited by - Mike_Fontenot on 06/20/2012 15:39:34

You dont have to move the bow the same amount for the single notes though. In fact, you learn not to, if you dont want the aforementioned notes to stick out.

quote:

---

Originally posted by IdleHands

You dont have to move the bow the same amount for the single notes though. In fact, you learn not to, if you dont want the aforementioned notes to stick out.

---

If you continually move the bow the same distance for each note, when you are continually playing that pattern for multiple measures, you will run out of bow fairly quickly ... the contact point with the string will get closer and closer to the frog, after each pair of bow strokes.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike_Fontenot

quote:

---

Originally posted by IdleHands

You dont have to move the bow the same amount for the single notes though. In fact, you learn not to, if you dont want the aforementioned notes to stick out.

---

If you continually move the bow the same distance for each note, when you are continually playing that pattern for multiple measures, you will run out of bow fairly quickly ... the contact point with the string will get closer and closer to the frog, after each pair of bow strokes.

 

---

theoretically.  but in reality, adjustments are made to prevent it.  we dont really move the same distance for each not.  We're not computers.

Edited by - IdleHands on 06/21/2012 08:45:10

Whether a person bows up or down or across, (an often forgotten part of the equation) MANY fiddlers tend to bow as many notes as they feel like bowing before changing bow directions without one thought whatsoever in reference to any specific prepatterned formula defining the number of notes per bow beforehand.

As the bow is traveling from one note to the other, or however many notes the fiddler feels like bowing before changing directions, sometimes a fiddler may change his or her mind about which direction they are bowing and adjust their bowing accordingly. For example, if it is a tight space and the fiddler decides not to jab the didgeredoo player in the eye with their bow (again,) the fiddler might change bow directions before they really wanted to simply because some didgeredoo players can't sit still.

This unpredictablity is not only found in didgeredoo players, but in musick as well. Therefore, one should be ready for what may or may not come next within the context of the sounds, human beings, or musical feeling that may be occupying the space in which the fiddler is playing the musick.

The dilemma in dealing with this tricky little thing called "musick" is that it is an individual pursuit-- especially so in traditional fiddling and it is much like learning a language. Sure a person can diagram a sentence, identify interjections, swear words, or racial slurs and simply formulaicly rerender them mathematically, but this is an entirely different experience (and concept) than having a conversation with a person. Learning a language or learning how to communicate in that language are two (or three or four) different things.

So, in regards to slurs and slurring (whether alcohol induced) or in regards to fiddling, it is best at the beginner level to play around with slurring like a small child plays with sounds with their mother or father. Goo goo gaah gaah. BRRRUP BRUUP (not specifically) just may be the most important foundational sounds for learning how to communicate as a small child-- more so than diagramming sentences in the seventh grade English class.

Dada dada ma ma
mine mine mine
dada dada ma ma
no no no

weeeeeeee! (this is very important)

It's all about discovery and everything about the fiddle is just that.

For all those people who break out in hives at the mention of bowing patterns, here's another way to say it: if you want to give any particular note a strong accent, then slur the three notes immediately preceding the note you want to strongly accent.  And if you prefer to downbow accented notes, then arrange to upbow those preceding three slurred notes.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike_Fontenot

For all those people who break out in hives at the mention of bowing patterns, here's another way to say it: if you want to give any particular note a strong accent, then slur the three notes immediately preceding the note you want to strongly accent.  And if you prefer to downbow accented notes, then arrange to upbow those preceding three slurred notes.

 

---

I don't get hives, im just tired of the over-intellectualized approach being paraded around like Sunday's Finest.

quote:

---

Originally posted by IdleHands

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike_Fontenot

For all those people who break out in hives at the mention of bowing patterns, here's another way to say it: if you want to give any particular note a strong accent, then slur the three notes immediately preceding the note you want to strongly accent.  And if you prefer to downbow accented notes, then arrange to upbow those preceding three slurred notes.

 

---

I don't get hives, im just tired of the over-intellectualized approach being paraded around like Sunday's Finest.

---

Wellllll.... you're parading your theories PLENTY- care to show us how they work out in REALITY???

And the approach we're talking about is used by plenty of good players... some of whom couldn't describe it at all.

(The actual bowing approach exists independently of any intellectualizing about it.)

But some of us can.  And since the OPs in this and another thread asked questions that we're choosing to answer according to both our experience and what we've studied of other people's bowing, EXCUSE US for offending your anarchical bias, StrawTurkey!!!

And the irony is.... I use "anywhichway" sometimes too... where it seems appropriate, where the downsides can be mitigated.  However, I have found downbowing to be a very efficient method for laying down a bowing groove, and it is part and parcel of American style fiddling and has been for some time.

YOU need to make some allowances for that, learn to "live and let live", instead of trolling on every thread that has anything to do with bowing.

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

quote:

---

Originally posted by IdleHands

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike_Fontenot

For all those people who break out in hives at the mention of bowing patterns, here's another way to say it: if you want to give any particular note a strong accent, then slur the three notes immediately preceding the note you want to strongly accent.  And if you prefer to downbow accented notes, then arrange to upbow those preceding three slurred notes.

 

---

I don't get hives, im just tired of the over-intellectualized approach being paraded around like Sunday's Finest.

---

Wellllll.... you're parading your theories PLENTY- care to show us how they work out in REALITY???

And the approach we're talking about is used by plenty of good players... some of whom couldn't describe it at all.

(The actual bowing approach exists independently of any intellectualizing about it.)

But some of us can.  And since the OPs in this and another thread asked questions that we're choosing to answer according to both our experience and what we've studied of other people's bowing, EXCUSE US for offending your anarchical bias, StrawTurkey!!!

And the irony is.... I use "anywhichway" sometimes too... where it seems appropriate, where the downsides can be mitigated.  However, I have found downbowing to be a very efficient method for laying down a bowing groove, and it is part and parcel of American style fiddling and has been for some time.

YOU need to make some allowances for that, learn to "live and let live", instead of trolling on every thread that has anything to do with bowing.

---

Getting your bowing to a point of skill where up and down dont matter is a possible, worthwhile and fun goal.  And i have a right to express my opinions just as much as you, on any thread where it comes up.   There are other approaches besides being a fastidious analyzer.  I let you live, will you let me?  And im not some other person you think i am.  I am just idlehands.