I'm relatively new to the violin world, but it strikes me that there are two very clear markets. There's the general market 1x (ebay, private sales) and then there's the violin shop market 4x+. I've never seen this kind of bifurcation before where identical instruments can have such differing values. Granted, on Ebay, violins often need repair. Violin shop fiddles tend to be in excellent condition, sans cracks. But even so, it's possible to buy a trade fiddle on ebay in excellent condition for $300. That same fiddle in "Johann's Expensive and Snotty Violin Shop" will go for $3500.

Go figure.

RB

Posted - 02/07/2010 :  12:40:59        

Anything nice on eBay that I've watched goes for a pretty good price. Do a watch for EH Roth violins and check the prices on anything from the 1920's. If they sell, it's $2K+. Anything from Markneukirchen, likewise. Anything for $300.00 is a pig in a poke or an educated gamble at best. Watch out for the guy in Portugal, he sells fakes.

I'm sure you can get lucky, but it's a risk. I've purchased fiddles online and it's ok if there is a trial period. I've been looking on ebay for something I can take apart and mess with, but rarely see anything cheap enough to risk it.

If I buy anything from a store I expect it's going to cost more (usually) than private party. That's true for guitars, banjos, mandolins, anything. The advantage of a purchase from a reputable store is they will set it up right and will be there when you need repairs, etc. As far as expensive, I always look at a store price as the starting price. You can get them to come down if it's been hanging on the wall for awhile. Plus you get to try it out, something I regret not doing a couple of times with my online purchases.

Posted - 02/07/2010 :  12:47:01        

I don't necessarily think that those two fiddles are the same. But even if they were, Snotty Johann has to stand behind his. And maybe there's other shops who aren't so snotty where the price would be 600.00- 1200.00. Believe me, I'm not condoning Snotty Johann's priceing structure, but if he is so overpriced and not giving good value, he'll have to hold that fiddle for a long time and maybe go out of bussiness. There are folks who like to brag about how much they spent for something, and think that price equates to value. There's also folks who like to brag about how cheap they got something for. Something for everyone.

Posted - 02/07/2010 :  13:11:15    

I can only speak from local experience -- about our local violin shop. They also sell all kinds of band instruments as well. Yes, some of their violins are very highly priced, but they also have $300 to $600 violins that are quite nice... and they don't act "snooty" if you ask to play them. They are also very accommodating about bows. My husband went in there to buy a bow for me a couple of years ago -- telling them he had about $100 to spend. They went through a bunch of bows until they found a $90 brazilwood bow that they thought was really nice. HardyKefes has played it and says it's a very nice bow.

Maybe it's because the work with so many students at all levels -- they don't get an "attitude" about lower-end instruments of any kind. They are very good about steering you towards an instrument that is appropriate for your skill level and genre at a price you can afford. Period. I think they have the attitude that if you become a customer buying lower-end instruments, when you're ready to move up, you'll think of them.

They've been in business for over 50 years. I guess maybe that's why.

Posted - 02/07/2010 :  13:16:59        

Usually when this disparity has been pointed out by a buyer of the less expensive one I note:

1. The less expensive one is really a different model from a line, the bottom end one. "I got a Roth for only . . . " But it's a low end model, and he's comparing it to a high end model.

2. The less expensive one is a fake. More common than one might think. Labels are cheap.

3. The less expensive one isn't in very good shape, and the one being compared to is in mint condition. That will make a large difference, especially with a soundpost crack or the like.

4. The buyer got really lucky on eBay.

5. The shop is selling a new, warrantied item, rather than a used unwarrantied item. Add 20% or more for that aspect.


Note that quite a few private sellers attempting to get me to buy things from them are way over pricing what they have, in part because of the above.

I am too often on the end of a conversation about setting up a bargain fiddle. The buyer of the bargain becomes upset when the repair cost brings the total cost up to equal to or greater than simply getting one in good shape in the first place.

Perhaps you could provide some examples for us to mull over.

Posted - 02/07/2010 :  14:03:17          

Those old trade violins sold originally for $2 to $200, roughly a 100 - to -1 range. Plus, a lot of those Ebay violins need expensive repairs, or at least a decent setup to be useful, which also costs money. Some of them are just junk.

The $200 trade violins (1920's Roth, early Heberlein) now sell in shops for around $6,000 - a thirty-fold increase. The two-dollar fiddles bring less than $100, if they sell at all, and most shops can't afford to carry them..

In a way, you are comparing a '71 Pinto with a '99 Mercedes CLK500. After all, they're both cars.

I agree with Steve's remarks, above, and would love to see some concrete examples.

Posted - 02/07/2010 :  14:44:35      

barretone, Did you have a bad experience with a shop that led you to this conclusion? If so I'm sorry to hear it but I think if you dig a little bit more below the surface you may find that most places try hard to be as fair and in tune with the market place as they can within the context of running a business and paying the bills, etc.

There will always be exceptions, but from what I have seen and heard talking with many other dealers in both the violin and fiddle world, most shops have some sort of fairly understandable relationship with what they pay for an instrument and what they sell it for.

Posted - 02/08/2010 :  06:10:13        

Since fiddles are hardly branded like other instruments, it is hard to know if you are comparing apples and oranges or what. There is a guy who has a shop in his home and sells better sounding and looking fiddles than the local violin shops or certain price points. He tends not to have too many of the higher end things. But his prices for instruments, accessories and repairs are right for the fiddlers and beginning violin folks. There are several other shops that charge more all around. Mostly this part-time guy beats their deals for fiddlers.

Posted - 02/08/2010 :  08:18:03    

OK. I just bought a JTL El Maestro in superb condition on eBay for $700. (The buyer was kind enough to offer me a 24-hour right of refusal.) Here's an auction listing for the same instrument at $1300
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/5190140

I currently can't find a shop version, but I have little doubt this fiddle would go for $2-3,000.

I do feel I was lucky and got a good deal, but I don't think this price scheme is unusual, particularly given a known brand name.

Randy

quote:

---

Originally posted by woodwiz

Those old trade violins sold originally for $2 to $200, roughly a 100 - to -1 range. Plus, a lot of those Ebay violins need expensive repairs, or at least a decent setup to be useful, which also costs money. Some of them are just junk.

The $200 trade violins (1920's Roth, early Heberlein) now sell in shops for around $6,000 - a thirty-fold increase. The two-dollar fiddles bring less than $100, if they sell at all, and most shops can't afford to carry them..

In a way, you are comparing a '71 Pinto with a '99 Mercedes CLK500. After all, they're both cars.

I agree with Steve's remarks, above, and would love to see some concrete examples.

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Posted - 02/08/2010 :  08:55:06        

That's an excellent and unusual deal. Fully set? Would be advertised perhaps at $2200, would leave the shop at $1500 to $2000. That's what I would anticipate.

It's not terribly uncommon on eBay to see things that look about like this. Those that I've bought have needed work, ideally a lot of work so they're very cheap. Those that people bring in often have damage, are fakes, or whatever as pointed out above.

It's not anything different about the violin market. Except the violin market has more than its share of fakes and condition plays into the price more than some markets.

Cattle auction vs. steaks at Kroger
Auto auction
Any estate sale or auction


Let me ask this; are any markets not like this?

Market 1: Works price. I buy enough to import. I pay freight, insurance, take all the risk from the place of manufacture in occupied Llaugavvilleland.
Market 2: I sell direct to retailers, marking up generally something like 2x or 3x the ex-works price. Covers shipping, overhead, returns, damaged goods, etc and surprisingly little profit.
Market 3: In the alternative, I sell to jobbers (generally distinguished by location), who sell to retailers. Their markup is rarely 2x times the FOB my warehouse cost. Often less in a competitive market.
Market 4: Retail to the "end user." Markups are generally 2x or in some fields 3x the price from wholesaler or jobber. Actual sale price (depending on item and considering how much setup there is, how much competition, and many many other factors dealing with support and so on) is usually 60% to 80% of "list" - list being usually 2x or 2.5x the unloaded wholesale.
Market 5: Private sales - these are all over, from silly low prices to people asking full undiscounted retail for beat up items.
Market 6: Auctions - all over the place, of course, but generally a used wholesale market.

Vintage instruments can be tricky. If you consider online auctions the bargain basement, then all the risks and possible rewards get taken on by the buyer. It's a wholesale or sub wholesale market. One problem is that instruments aren't fungible, especially vintage instruments. Some brands were made in several different shops that weren't equivalent. Some time periods of a shop's production are more valued than others. Some instruments just won't run. Another problem is backup. There is none on an auction sale.

Let's put up two apparently equal instruments. Two Roth violas. My customer has bought a Roth viola with the label ripped out, assured to be from 1938 by the seller, a famous shop with a bit of a reputation problem. She got an incredible deal for about $3800. Years later I look at her Roth viola. It's a 1960s Roth viola, of the low end. It's not worth anywhere near $3800. On eBay the labelless Roth viola would simply be listed as "ER Roth viola - nice condition." If you look at comps from the 1930s you'll bid high. If you look at comps from the 1960s, you'll bid low.

We'll do another vintage. This is a real example, although I won't point out the maker.

Maker X violin purchased at auction for about $1500, with the maker's work going for over $10,000 at the shops. A great deal.

Violin needs doubling of top & back, a couple of new blocks, neck has been cut narrow so it needs a new graft. Also needs top distortions taken out, new fingerboard, bushing, complete new setup, old post patch replacing, some cracks fixing, and extensive varnish setup. It was still a good deal, but there's no way to know ahead of time whether the instrument will really sound. In this instance, it really was a Maker X violin. Normally the violins like this coming in aren't. And the fellow purchasing it had insufficient knowledge to determine authenticity or condition. He just got lucky, although he did whine at the price of restoration.

Now. Look at my numbers above. If you see a shop advertising an XYZ model 12 at a list of $4000. You can probably get that instrument with bargaining for $3000 or less. It probably cost the shop $2000 plus setup and overhead. It likely sells on the used market at $2000. It likely shows up a little beat on eBay at $800, but is usually bid up to $1800. This doesn't seem any different than the used vs. new, or auction vs. retail venue differential in anything.

Also, you're relatively new to the violin world. Those of us who aren't see many many many many many deals. Some are very good for the buyer. These get pointed to, bragged about, hyped. I assure you, the number of disappointed aftermarket buyers who keep quiet about their purchasing error far outweighs the lucky buyers. All too often the lucky buyers are simply wrong about what they got and what it would really have normally sold for. They just don't know it. And unless they ask very precisely, I'm not going to pop the bubble.

Posted - 02/08/2010 :  09:18:44          

Steve's post is great, but that's just the start of it. Main point being that most markets work the same way.

You have to make a profit to stay in business, and there aren't too many people getting rich in the fiddle business. Overhead is high for most violin shops, and inventory turns over slowly, but private sellers don't have to pay store rent, employees, etc. Motivations of private sellers vary; local markets vary. Like any business, there are some "ethically challenged" people, but I haven't run into many of them.

As far as the Ebay fiddle goes, it may not be a Pinto, but it's leaning that way. The body looks good, but mechanical tuners knock at least half the value off. Personally, I'd pass it up at any price. Too hard to re-sell, when there are tons of great fiddles in the same price range without them, and too expensive to fix. The other examples have standard pegs.

Edited by - woodwiz on 02/08/2010 09:34:23

Posted - 02/08/2010 :  09:42:02        

Yup, there's coffee and there's cooffffeeeee . . . . I will pay more for the latter. Often the only difference is in the treatment and handling. But sometimes there are good deals.

Vacuum packed blue mountain blend seems so disappointing compared to just picked, fresh roasted, hand ground, from a beat up tin cup in the blue mountains.

But tastes vary.

Posted - 02/08/2010 :  10:58:21    

Good points on overhead, plus repair and set up costs for shop fiddles. But the differential still seems pretty steep to me. I can't blame anybody for wanting to stay in business, tho. And I agree, shop-sold fiddles tend to be in excellent+ condition.

And Woodwiz: The mechanical tuners are what sold me! Plus, the fiddle actually sounds good.

RB

Posted - 02/08/2010 :  10:59:58        

You're right barretone the difference between the two markets is huge but like the fellas say above the difference between the two markets is much more then price. A instrument bought from a shop is backed by someones word. They want you to enjoy the instrument and maybe even tell your friends where you got it. If you have a problem with a shop bought instrument in most cases you can bring it back and they'll help you out, at least for a discounted rate. Also, when buying a shop instrument you can try it out first, even compare it to others in the shop. For me a huge huge advantage to buying from a shop is a trade up policy, the shop near me does it. If I buy a fiddle for a grand, at any time I can go back and trade it in putting 100% of that price towards a newer, more expensive fiddle. All of these advantages have a value, not to mention building a rapport with people that actually care about your playing. When you buy from ebay, in most cases, that's it you're stuck with what you get. As soon as you hit purchase button it's a done deal in all aspects. That said my favorite fiddle I have right now is one I bought off the fiddle hangout classifieds for $350.

Posted - 02/08/2010 :  11:07:12        

The difference between the two markets simply isn't huge. It's no more huge than in any other thing.

I can get a __ guitar I used to sell on eBay for say $500. The ex-works price was $376 when I was buying many. The list was about $1300, wholesale around $650, usually retailed around $850, below MAP, but some profit in there for everyone. So eBay is less than half new list.

Vintage stuff doesn't have a "list."

i just don't see this general disparity. I doubt it's there at all on many things. I sell one fellow new instruments, cut him a little bit of a deal, he often sells them for a little more than he (or the buyer) could get them for here. It's still less than most shops charge. It's a little more than some teachers with no overhead charge, but without my setup, maintenance, and continuing support on the instrument end of things. Same thing happens with the vintage instruments I sell. They show up again on the market sometimes at or above what I sold them for.

I just don't see it happening as a routine thing. In the example of the instrument above with mechanical tuners - big hit on value right there. Immaterial that the buyer likes it. One with mechanical tuners would be fixed at some expense in a shop or deeply discounted. Don't take published prices at face value!

Posted - 02/08/2010 :  11:41:59        

By huge I wasn't speaking in terms of prices alone, the general buying experience. It is different then many other things because of the special nature of instruments. I've never had to bring a camera back to the place I bought it to have it tweaked, I've never brought a pair of pants back to the gap to have them hemmed. There is a level of service that a instrument shop offers that isn't paralleled in many of the other consumer outlets. By buying through a shop you support that consumer/shop relationship and make this world a better place.

Posted - 02/08/2010 :  12:33:33    

Ok, here's another example. I've just purchased a JTL Barnabetti, which is in technically good condition, but lower block needs to be reglued. Luckily I can do that myself. I paid $300 for it. Here's one that sold from fancy private shop in Utah for around $5,000 (look down about five fiddles)

http://finestringinstruments.com/pa...s_5-11.shtml

You can't tell me there isn't a massive differential here! If I repaired the fiddle and put in on eBay, I'd probably get $350 or so for it.

RB

Posted - 02/08/2010 :  13:41:43        

That would be a massive differential. There's no way to tell what they actually sold the instrument for, or if it's really the same as yours. A brief search turns up variations in quality mentioned. What the instrument would bring on eBay isn't particularly relevant. Probably depends on the quality of restoration, the quality of pictures, phase of the moon, and random variations in buying interest.

I would think even $4000 would be high for that type of instrument. Given what $4000 will buy these days!

But an unrestored violin like that would be priced quite differently if it's been gone through. Much of what you're paying for in a better shop is the going through.

Violin - bad lower block. Add simple repair, modest setup, sell on eBay. That gives one value.

Violin - bad lower block. Add pull-apart, graduation cleanup, new blocks where needed, new bar, varnish repair, complete high-end setup. That will give a different value.

They aren't really comparable. Which is what we've been pointing out. Apple 1 does not equal Apple 2.

And this isn't the only market to reflect that.

1969 Camero 1: Runs, a little body rust, high mileage, needs new interior and general going through. All original

1969 Camero 2: Runs well, 28,500 original miles, garage kept, oil kept changed, run occasionally, stored on blocks to keep tires round.

1969 Camero 3: Complete restored car with new, souped up engine, wide tires, fancy interior, lots of rake, and stunning custom paint job.

1969 Camero 4: Like Camero 1, but with the engine & trans not original and an aftermarket paint job. Plenty of bondo. Smokes on startup and has some tranny & dif noise. Looks to have been driven hard.

1969 Camero 5: It's in a barn under a tarp, the trustee wants the dang thing out of there make me an offer.

They're all 1969 Cameros. You keep indicating Camero 1 is the same as 2 and 3 or 4 or 5, and implying the price differential is in some way unusual, or unjustified, or whatever. In vintage items especially, it's not at all the same. Even in modern stuff in the same condition it's not. A 1920s Gibson mando with Loar's sig in it isn't the same as one that doesn't have his sig. A 1957 Les Paul isn't the same as a 1976 Les Paul. Well, it is, but hey, the market doesn't think so. I do miss that Les Paul . . . .

If you see Camero 5 anywhere give me an immediate buzz, that's my type of thing. I'll bring a trailer.

Now I have known people in shops to ask very high prices and hope for a sucker. But that's pretty rare. Generally shops will price at a good value.

The Barnabetti needing work is the kind of thing I'd take in, do a full restoration on, and tag at $1500 to $2500 depending on how it turned out and what my evaluation of the market turned up. That's a fair price, including the graduation cleanup, bar, setup, often a new board, etc. In the big Chicago shops it would be higher. I doubt you'd find one restored fully for any less. You can probably find some that claim to be.

Posted - 02/08/2010 :  14:55:45      

as far as the Barnabetti goes JTL had several different models sold under this name with the best being over twice the price of the least expensive. Which one is yours, which one does the dealer have, how much did he pay and how much work did he put into it?

A point worth considering is that if you take a few isolated cases from ebay, or anywhere else, you can prove just about anything. I see violins sell on ebay that occasionally go for retail or above if enough people get in on the bidding or the seller has done a great job of hyping it.
That does not mean that ebay is the place to get the most $$$ when selling violins as it is not what happens most of the time. I have watched most of the major violin auction house sales for a number of years as well as ebay and bought a fair number of instruments over the years this way. A very few I got lucky and made out really well on and a very few I ended up loosing money. The majority ended up netting about what you might get if you were to buy new merchandise in almost any other field for resale.

As Voo Doo and woodwiz have pointed out, market economics will tend to balance things out if you take some sort of average from a larger number of examples.

Posted - 02/08/2010 :  16:36:17        

quote:

---

Originally posted by barretone

Ok, here's another example. I've just purchased a JTL Barnabetti, which is in technically good condition, but lower block needs to be reglued. Luckily I can do that myself. I paid $300 for it. Here's one that sold from fancy private shop in Utah for around $5,000 (look down about five fiddles)

http://finestringinstruments.com/pa...s_5-11.shtml

You can't tell me there isn't a massive differential here! If I repaired the fiddle and put in on eBay, I'd probably get $350 or so for it.

RB

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Posted - 02/08/2010 :  17:25:05      

[/quote]

Why does it bother you what someone else charges for an instrument that you have no intention of buying? If you're happy finding "deals" on E-Bay and believing that they are worth more, find joy in that. Don't try to turn a positive into a negative. Be Happy.
[/quote]

thanks for your take on this mudbug, it's refreshing and for me a great reminder of what is perhaps the most important issue involved.

Posted - 02/08/2010 :  20:56:17          

quote:

---

Originally posted by barretone

I'm relatively new to the violin world, but it strikes me that there are two very clear markets. There's the general market 1x (ebay, private sales) and then there's the violin shop market 4x+. I've never seen this kind of bifurcation before where identical instruments can have such differing values. Granted, on Ebay, violins often need repair. Violin shop fiddles tend to be in excellent condition, sans cracks. But even so, it's possible to buy a trade fiddle on ebay in excellent condition for $300. That same fiddle in "Johann's Expensive and Snotty Violin Shop" will go for $3500.

Go figure.
RB

---

Posted - 02/09/2010 :  03:32:40        

What's really funny is how I get treated when I indicate I'm curious about a specific high dollar (HIGH) instrument the ritzy shop has because I like making instruments. I've generally been ushered back given a tour, examined the instrument I know about and shown other quite interesting things. Not an excessive amount of time taken, just shown the things I should see. Maybe I'll be given the opportunity to buy broken things they don't need, or offered things that don't fit their market wholesale. All that has happened.

Posted - 02/09/2010 :  04:37:30  

There are as many markets as there are demographic differences in customers. Some people have money and some do not. If you have money and spend a lot, you think you have something of value, which is not necessarily true, but if you are content, it's true, until you learn more.

I am thinking about these demographics:
1. Parents of student customers
2. Wealthy adult student customers
3. Poor student customers
4. Wealthy professional customers
5. Poor professional customer
6. Can't play, just collecting customers
7. The informed customer

Posted - 02/09/2010 :  05:32:19        

They'll be a good deal of crossover. Parents of students are often players themselves. Collectors often play, but don't care as much about playing as they do the instrument. Informed and misinformed cross all your categories.

You left out the stalkers and other interesting demographics. Always beware of any potential customer whose email starts "I am not a stalker, but . . . ."

Posted - 02/09/2010 :  07:39:55  

quote:

---

Originally posted by voodoo

They'll be a good deal of crossover. Parents of students are often players themselves. Collectors often play, but don't care as much about playing as they do the instrument. Informed and misinformed cross all your categories.

You left out the stalkers and other interesting demographics. Always beware of any potential customer whose email starts "I am not a stalker, but . . . ."

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