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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: 150 tef files from The Fiddle Book


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allenadale - Posted - 07/11/2008:  06:11:03


Hey,

I got a copy of Marion Thede's The Fiddle Book through interlibrary loan. It is a delightful book. Anyway, wanting to have copies of these tunes after the book was due to be returned, I quickly generated tabledit files for 150 of the tunes.

I excluded a few of the better known pieces and a couple of transcriptions that weren't really fiddle tunes. But everything else is there, in the recommended tuning and tempo.

Anyway, this morning I turned the whole thing into a zip file and put it up on the Mountain Sentinel Website. You can find it at http://www.mountainsentinel.com/tab...ddleBook.zip

or look at the last link at the bottom of this page:
http://www.mountainsentinel.com/tablature.php

If you can't open zip files and want these tunes, let me know and we'll figure something out.

I'll see if I can quickly put together a list of tunes and post it here.

enjoy

allenadale - Posted - 07/11/2008:  06:56:39


Here's the full listing, organized by tuning.

STANDARD TUNING
Bear Creek
Bile Them Cabbage Down
Billy in the Low Ground
Coondog
Rabbit in the Grass
Hell Among the Yearlings
Forked Deer
Cacklin Hen
Chicken and Cornbread
Chicken got the Axe
Chicken in the Barnyard
Coleman Killed His Wife
Creek Nation
Cripple Creek
Cumberland Gap
Custer's Last Stand
Devilish Mary
Dust in the Lane
Fort Smith
Good Indian
Haning's Farewell
Hog on the Mountain
Hop High Ladies
Hop Up Kitty Puss
I Lost My Liza Jane
Jack of Diamonds
Jenny on the Railroad
Judge Parker
Last of Callahan
Little Girl in Hampertown
Lonesome Hill
Love Somebody
Molly Baker
Ni**** and White Man
Number Nine
Paddy on the Turnpike
Poor Old Napper
Pretty Lizy
Pruitt
Run Ni**** Run
Sail Away Ladies
Sally Johnson
Sourwood Mountain
Springfield Girl
Sugar in My Coffee
Wagner No. 1
Wagner No. 2
Wagner No. 3
Wagner One Step
Whoa Mule
Walk Along John
All Over Now
Benny Eat a Woodchuck
Berlin Polka
Collins' Breakdown
Green Valley Waltz
Heel Flies
Maple Leaf
Oklahoma Run
Oklahoma Waltz
Rabbit Where's Your Mammy
Redbird
Sandhill Breakdown
Slaton Waltz
Substitute Waltz
Texas Quickstep
Tulsey Waltz
Uncle Paul
Verdigris Bottom
Wednesday Night Waltz

AEAE
Black Jack Davey
Wrassled a Wildcat
Wolves a Howlin
Chicken Pie
Cluckin Hen
Give the Fiddler a Dram
Goner
Granny will Your Dog Bite
Great Big Taters
Green Back Dollar
Idy Red
Lasses Cane
Little Dutch Girl
Little Girl with Her Hair all Down Behind
Liza Jane No. 3
Natchez Under the Hill
Old Joe Clark
Railroad Runs through Georgia
Sally Goodin
Sweet Child
Tom and Jerry
White Creek
Gray Eagle

ADAE
Across the Sea
Yellow Cat
Finger Ring
Grandma Blair
Paddy won't You Drink some Good Old Cider
Preacher's Favorite
Rock the Cradle Lucy

AEAC#
Cripple Creek
Drunkard's Dream
Drunken Hiccoughs
Father's got a Home
Jenny Nettles
Lost Indian
Orphan Girl
Parsley Girls

GDAD
Cotton Eyed Joe
I Asked that Pretty Girl
Little Home to Go to

DDAD
Old Paint

EEBE
Dry and Dusty

EEAE
Five Miles from Town

BEBE
I'd Druther be a Ni****

AEF#C#
Old Dan Tucker



tiquose - Posted - 07/11/2008:  07:12:45


Fantastic! You did a great job, and a hundred and fifty tunes is a bunch of them!

I'm going to change the way I play Bile Dem Cabbage Down. This one has some nice syncopation in it.

Janet
"Curiosity killed the cat but satisfaction brought it back." -my grandmother, Bertha Morgan Nelson

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allenadale - Posted - 07/11/2008:  07:30:08


quote:
Originally posted by tiquose

I'm going to change the way I play Bile Dem Cabbage Down. This one has some nice syncopation in it.

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Yeah, I found that version interesting. Just goes to show you can always learn something new about even the simplest tune.

There were some problems translating Marion Thede's notation into tabledit. The biggest problem was with the grace notes. Many of her grace notes are actually attached to the previous note, so that you change bowing after the grace notes, with the note the grace notes normally lead to. There is absolutely no way to do this in tabledit, at least not that I've found.

One other comment off the top of my head. I haven't tried the BEBE tuning yet. That low B seems like it might be more than a G string could handle. So if I played this tune, I'd be tempted to tune down a step to ADAD. Hey anybody ever hear of a fiddle capo?

mojo_monk - Posted - 07/11/2008:  10:22:25


HOLY S*)*& - YOU ARE MY HERO!!!

I've been working on the *EXACT* same project for about a week now, but life has gotten in the way. Many, many thanks!


Sean
Charleston, IL


Edited by - mojo_monk on 07/11/2008 10:22:49

girlgeek - Posted - 07/11/2008:  12:55:21


So. . .beautiful. . . should have sent. . .a poet.

whigski - Posted - 07/11/2008:  13:33:22


quote:
Originally posted by allenadale

Hey,

I got a copy of Marion Thede's The Fiddle Book through interlibrary loan. It is a delightful book. Anyway, wanting to have copies of these tunes after the book was due to be returned, I quickly generated tabledit files for 150 of the tunes.

I excluded a few of the better known pieces and a couple of transcriptions that weren't really fiddle tunes. But everything else is there, in the recommended tuning and tempo.

Anyway, this morning I turned the whole thing into a zip file and put it up on the Mountain Sentinel Website. You can find it at ...





My new copy of the book says, "All rights reserved. No part of this book may be reproduced in any form or by any electronic or mechanical means including information storage and retrieval systems, without permission in writing from the publisher except by a reviewer who may quote brief passages in a review."

Do you think anyone might possibly mind what you did? How about Eric?
It would be sad if FHO was taken down because of your actions.

What I find ironic, is that you are selling downloadable publications at your website, so you can hardly claim to be naive. Maybe someone who knows more about these types of matters can provide advice.





Edited by - whigski on 07/11/2008 14:23:11

M-D - Posted - 07/11/2008:  15:07:26


Who is publishing that book now? Last I knew, it was no longer available from Music Sales.

Just to play the devil's advocate here, exactly what part of the book was reproduced? If I'm to take that claim at face value, then even playing the music would amount to a transgression.

_________________________________________________________________

M-D

Old-Time, All the Time

Music is found in the space between the notes -- in the silence between the chords. Get your spaces right, and you''ve got it. ~ Albert Greenfield

whigski - Posted - 07/11/2008:  17:03:44


quote:
Originally posted by M-D

Just to play the devil's advocate here, exactly what part of the book was reproduced? If I'm to take that claim at face value, then even playing the music would amount to a transgression.

_________________________________________________________________

M-D



I'm not a lawyer, but I think Allenadale would have his work cut out for him justifying his actions to Judge Judy. If I owned the copyright, I would seek to be compensated for every copy made, even if just one copy was downloaded directly from mountainsentinel.com. His actions will undoubted cost the publisher at least some future sales. I don't know Allanadale, and I certainly have nothing at all against him personally, but I think he gave away something that he didn't have the right to give away. How can he possibly rectify matters, except possibly financially?

Another possible loss to all of us is that the publisher may elect not to invest as much effort in another book like this one.

Playing devil's advocate here just amounts to "angle-shooting". There always seem to be angle shooters... My mom is an angle shooter (so I know angle-shooting when I see it)! It's easier to ask for forgiveness than it is to ask for permission.... I'll assume that Allanadale used good judgement and secured permission from the publisher, before he published on this web site. Hopefully someone knowlegable about legal matters can provide suggestions regarding these matters.

Happy Bowing To All!
Bill


Edited by - whigski on 07/11/2008 17:04:58

allenadale - Posted - 07/11/2008:  17:22:47


Look, if this were still in print, I wouldn't offer it to anyone. If Marion Thede was still alive, I would seek her out and ask her permission to offer them through my site.

Cost the publisher future sales. That's a load of half-baked dough. If this book were to be republished tomorrow, I would be the first in line to buy a copy. I would respectfully suggest that these files will only wet the whistles (or rosin the bows) of most readers, and might even lead to renewed interest in the book and calls for republication.

As it is, I am not offering it for profit. Nor did I reproduce the text, which is worth the price of the book in itself. As for the tunes, No one can claim to hold a copyright on these tunes. They are ages old. I offer them simply to share a work that people here will appreciate (not my work), and to honor Marion Thede for putting together this collection in the first place.

Nobody would take action against Eric because I mentioned these tunes here. This is a public forum and anyone could say anything.

I had already decided to make these files available for only a limited time. I'll give folks here time to download them. If folks like whigski are offended, they don't have to download them.

I suspect whigski is simply jealous.

whigski - Posted - 07/11/2008:  18:28:56


quote:
Originally posted by allenadale

As it is, I am not offering it for profit. Nor did I reproduce the text, which is worth the price of the book in itself. As for the tunes, No one can claim to hold a copyright on these tunes. They are ages old. I offer them simply to share a work that people here will appreciate (not my work), and to honor Marion Thede for putting together this collection in the first place.



I had already decided to make these files available for only a limited time. I'll give folks here time to download them. If folks like whigski are offended, they don't have to download them.

I suspect whigski is simply jealous.




Allanadale wrote:

1. "As it is, I am not offering it for profit."

--- However you are providing the files alongside of ones which you are selling for money. You've added value to your website at someone else's expense.


2. "Nobody would take action against Eric because I mentioned these tunes here. This is a public forum and anyone could say anything."

--The problem is not with anything "you've said or mentioned". If there is indeed any problem, it is that you may have provided links to material which were protected by copyright to Eric's site. For all practical purposes, the material may as well be on his server.

3. "I had already decided to make these files available for only a limited time. I'll give folks here time to download them. If folks like whigski are offended, they don't have to download them. I suspect whigski is simply jealous."

--Yes, most of the damage will be done in a limited time. I have the $20 book, I am not jealous.

On the other hand, I think you have tried to add value to your commercial website at the expense of the work of others and now it is even more clear that you don't care. This ever more prevalent attitude is one that I do find offensive. We are all in this world together, and I think that respect for one another is important. Perhaps that's why I chose to participate in this thread in the first place.

Thoughtfully,
Bill





Edited by - whigski on 07/11/2008 18:41:17

allenadale - Posted - 07/12/2008:  07:31:04


As for item 1. I make very little money on sales from this site, about enough to pay for the site. Furthermore, I keep the music files separate from the rest of the site. You will notice that when I mention new music files available here, I include a direct link, not a link to the front page of the site. The people who come to this site for my articles are overwhelmingly not interested in the music. I started placing the music files on this site because it was cheaper than setting up another separate site.
In any case, most of my income as a writer (really, all of it) is generated from fiction written under a pen name that I keep completely separate from the stuff on this site. If you read sci-fi, fantasy, horror magazines, then you may very well have read one of my stories without knowing it.

So, how much money might I have generated from having these files on my site? I couldn't really say, but based on the income generated from the site and what I know from reader feedback, it is certainly minimal. It is doubtful it is even enough to pay for parking the files on this site.

As for item No. 2. Copyrights expire in 28 years. They can be extended for another 67 years. The Fiddle Book was published by Oak Publications in 1967. Books in Print (go to your library) lists that it went out of print over 30 years ago. An online search will turn up no recently published copies of the book. So far as I can determine, the book is out of print with no intention of reprinting.

From what I know of the publishing industry, it is likely that the book never sold out its initial printing and so was never reprinted. As the book went out of print before the copyright expired, it is unlikely the copyright was renewed.

I don't know where you got it, but it sure wasn't a new copy. The only copies you can find anywhere are at least 30 years old.

As for item No. 3. I won't bother even responding.

Whigsky, stop whigging out. You gotta keep these things in perspective. When you're talking online, it is easy to assume you are reaching a huge audience when you are only talking to a few people who are interested. My site does not profit from these files. I am not setting on a fortune generated from the Mountain Sentinel website.

Folks, if you want these files, click on the direct link above and download them. You don't even have to visit the site. If you click on the zip link, you will download the files without even seeing the rest of the site.

To expand on what M-D said, if I went over to my stepson's and recorded all these tunes using his recording equipment, then put these recordings up for free, would that be infringing the copyright on a book that went out of print over 30 years ago?

This is ridiculous.


allenadale - Posted - 07/12/2008:  08:08:46


Now, folks, when I posted this topic, I was hoping to generate some discussion of the tunes, not this garbage about whether I violated copyright and whether I am profitting from making these files available.

So what about that BEBE tuning? Has anyone ever tried that without breaking a string?

What about the version of Old Paint in Dead Man's Tuning? Anybody ever hear that before? It's always good to find another tune in Dead Man Tuning.

And what do you think of Great Big Taters in Sandy Land played in AEAE. I think I like it better in standard tuning, the way Eck Robertson played it.


Edited by - allenadale on 07/12/2008 08:09:55

woodwiz - Posted - 07/12/2008:  09:15:29


quote:
Originally posted by allenadale

Now, folks, when I posted this topic, I was hoping to generate some discussion of the tunes, not this garbage about whether I violated copyright and whether I am profitting from making these files available.



I don't think it's garbage. I think intellectual property rights are worthy of consideration, and I don't think it's very productive for anybody to include personal attacks or slurs in the discussion.

The Fiddle Book was published in 1996. Copyright extends for 95 years from that date. Just because a book is out of print doesn't mean its content is no longer somebody's property. The rights probably belong to Thede's heirs, or to Music Sales Corporation. It is their property to control as they please.

If you perform a song written by Lieber and Stoller in 1965, you will be expected to pay royalties on it. The music industry sends people around to enforce this as best they can.

I've transcribed about a hundred public domain tunes from old CD's. I'd be really upset if someone were to distribute my transcriptions without my permission. My work is mine alone, to sell, publish, or give away as I please.

Fair use generally allows reproduction of a portion of a copyrighted work for various purposes, (i.e. reviews) and copying and sharing a few copies (under 10) can sometimes be considered fair use, for example if a work is out of print and not available otherwise. But It seems to me that wholesale copying and distribution on a public forum would be going far across the line.

I don't think the individual circumstances matter all that much. The law is the law and facts are facts. Taking other people's property, even when when nobody is watching, is still stealing.

I don't see any objection to making a couple of copies to share among friends, but offering it to anyone who cares to Google it is way too much, IMO. (Any copyright lawyers or publishers out there, feel free to set me straight if I'm wrong.)

Michael R

www.kcstrings.com
"Together, we create"

"Thank you for the wonderful violin you made. I''ve used it on every show I''ve played since I''ve got it." John Hartford


Edited by - woodwiz on 07/12/2008 09:18:04

allenadale - Posted - 07/12/2008:  09:35:28


Fine. Whatever. I'm taking the tabledit files down. Sorry I tried to share.

wormbower - Posted - 07/12/2008:  12:44:52


Thanks, allenadale. This case seems to be closed, and so is this thread.

CLICK.

Paul

Anything worth doing is worth doing poorly. -Faith Petric
The chief enemy of creativity is common sense -Pablo Picasso

wormbower - Posted - 07/12/2008:  12:46:45


Hmm, well, I seem to have misplaced my virtual topic locking key...

Paul

Anything worth doing is worth doing poorly. -Faith Petric
The chief enemy of creativity is common sense -Pablo Picasso

drdosido - Posted - 07/13/2008:  20:14:57


I don't think it's garbage. I think intellectual property rights are worthy of consideration, and I don't think it's very productive for anybody to include personal attacks or slurs in the discussion.

Yeah, fine. But Allanadale did not deprive Marion Thede or her heirs of any remuneration they would have had coming to them. The book is out of print and has been for a long time. If you wanted to buy a copy of it you'd have to get it from a reseller and that would not deliver any royalties to Marion Thede or her estate.

US copyright law, as it currently stands, is ridiculously flawed and needs to be ignored, subverted, and flauted in every possible way. Originally, copyright law was written to protect a balance of rights-intellectual property rights of creators AND the public domain. Why is the public domain important? Because intellectual creativity stands on the shoulders of what has come before. The notion of a public domain is essential to culture and continuing creativity.

But in its most recent legislative manifestations, copyright law has spurned the public domain and bent over backward to protect the overimagined intellectual property rights of, not the creators of intellectual property, but those who purchase the rights. I could give a rat's ass about the latter, because for the most part, they don't care about anything but their bottom line. There's nothing intellectual about that property.

My position is that it is important to screw the system as it is, and hopefully in the future, a saner Congress with a broader perspective of civic virtue will rewrite the copyright law once again.

If a musician has made a CD that you like. Buy a copy from him or her. If an old 78 now belongs to BMG Sony or Viacom, bootleg that sucker with all the impunity you can muster. First of all, they probably don't even know it's in their catalog unless you tell them. Secondly, they did nothing to aid the creation of the original and will do less to see that the actual creators get any benefit from the sale.

US copyright law is an intolerable act. Throw the f---ing tea into the harbor once again.

Allanadale, please keep the Thede files up and don't let the idiots get to you.



M-D - Posted - 07/13/2008:  21:02:18




_________________________________________________________________

M-D

Old-Time, All the Time

Music is found in the space between the notes -- in the silence between the chords. Get your spaces right, and you''ve got it. ~ Albert Greenfield

SlowPockets - Posted - 07/14/2008:  03:32:21


In retrospect I took an approach to handling this thread that was heavy handed and because of that I'd like to apologize to Paul (drdosido) and anyone else who I may have offended.

That being said, the fact remains that political discussion isn't allowed on the site and the participants of this thread were asked to let it go. It's my opinion that the preceding post (not you M-D) was political and only served to further aggravate an already tense situation.



Genius itself succeeds only by arduous self-training ...to play on the fiddle it is not merely necessary to take a bow and fiddle with it.
Mark Twain

Fiddle Hangout Rules and Guidelines | Fiddle Hangout FAQ | Search the FHO Jukebox


Edited by - SlowPockets on 07/14/2008 08:55:45



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