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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: Do we need the Music Theory Forum?


Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link.

wormbower - Posted - 03/23/2008:  11:36:42


There are a couple of really interesting threads brewing in the Playing Advice forum: playing the scale? and Beginning Music Theory using your Fiddle Strings.

On their face, both of these discussions really belong in the Music Theory forum, wouldn't you think? Several moderators, including myself, have been mulling over whether to move them, but so far, we've resisted. They may talk about music theory, but they're centered on how to play the fiddle. I thought that these important topics might get lost if I moved them to the Music Theory forum, where both posts and topics are outnumbered 30-to-one compared to the Playing Advice forum.

The Banjo Hangout has a Music Theory forum, which has worked very well, but somehow music theory for fiddlers seems to hold a different place than music theory for banjo players. One of my fellow moderators put it like this:

To me learning to play the fiddle and learning about music theory are one in the same ..if you think about how we learn intonation it's just theory, learning to play by ear is just an exercise in intervals, the amount of scales we play speaks for itself ... Being able to accept the challenge of playing without frets IMO already shows a pretty advanced knowledge in theory, whether intuitive or acquired through the learning process it doesn't present the same problems for us as say someone who spends the first few years of learning to play by reading tab.

So here's my question for you all: Do we really need a separate Music Theory forum, or should we roll music theory into Playing Advice?

Paul



Anything worth doing is worth doing poorly. -Faith Petric
The chief enemy of creativity is common sense -Pablo Picasso


Edited by - wormbower on 03/24/2008 09:24:36

Johnny Thomasson - Posted - 03/23/2008:  12:01:31


I agree. To me, there isn't much of a distinction between theory and playing, or at least not enough to warrant maintaining two separate forums. The threads I've read in the theory forum would not be out of place at all in the playing advice forum.

What I think would be much more beneficial to the membership is a recording forum. There has been quite a bit of discussion on the general subject of recording in several forums. Learning to record oneself is just about as challenging as learning to play, and there are many obstacles to overcome. There seems to be quite a bit of knowledge here, a willingness to share it and many others who are seeking it.

Sorry to hijack your thread, I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents again for a recording forum. However I do agree with your premise that the theory and playing advice forum would meld together nicely. It might make searching a bit easier too.

Happy Easter All!

Johnny Thomasson
Aledo, Texas

DougD - Posted - 03/23/2008:  12:25:16


Yes I think we do, and I'd like to see things go the other way. I think "Playing Advice" is too broad - thats why it gets a lot of threads. Seems to me that it could be divided into "Technique" - for bowing, practice strategies and such. "Materials" - for discussion of rosin, bows, chin rests, etc and "Theory" - for scales, modes, keys and so forth. I guess it would replace "Playing the Fiddle" as a larger category.
And I think a "Technical" or "Recording" forum would be good. There seems to be enough interest.


Edited by - DougD on 03/23/2008 12:28:22

SMDTMTL - Posted - 03/23/2008:  13:38:31


My opinion would be to add the recording forum, and scrap the music theory forum.

I do agree that the Playing advice forum sometimes seems overloaded, but I think that's largely due to the number of times new topics will be started without bothering to see that that subject, whatever it is, was just covered extensively the preceding week ,month or year. Mostly, fiddling information doesn't get out of date.

Something that might be helpful is some kind of easy reminder to people to search on a topic before starting a new thread. We've all seen there be dozens of repeated topics, and if it sometimes seems like there can be a lot of scrolling down through threads in the playing advice section, I think it is in a large part it's due to new members starting their "new" topics without searching first. Maybe just, along side of the "New Topic" icon put the message, "have you searched on this topic yet?" I have no idea if that would do any good, but it might help.

And of course, there is very often a valid reason for re-introducing a topic and that should never be discouraged, but certainly there is a lot of repetition sometimes.

Steve

carroll - Posted - 03/23/2008:  15:16:05


I do think a music theory forum is useful, and have been thinking that the two threads referred to belong there.

My primary reason is that it will be easier to locate these threads after some time has passed. The two threads are definitely dealing with topics that would be covered in a music theory text.

The second reason is that it is reasonable to distinguish between music theory and topics that are strictly related to playing, such as tuning, using the bow, playing double stops, and so on.

Naturally, theory in this forum is applied to playing the fiddle, but this same theory can be applied to any instrument.

- Carroll

BanjoBrad - Posted - 03/23/2008:  15:26:07


Personally I believe both posts should be in the Theory Forum, but I was late getting in on this and the other mods seem to feel differently.

So, not to be too strict, I have bowed to the majority. I believe that using the Theory Forum for music theory would help to keep things straighter, and allow for the theory to get away from the fiddle fingerboard and into more esoteric areas that might leave people uninterested in the topic staring blankly at their computer screens.

(I just looked at the preceding post and agree with Carroll.)


Brad

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tiquose - Posted - 03/23/2008:  16:30:01


I was out of town when this came up.

If it were entirely up to me, I'd put them in Theory for the reasons carroll gives. Yes, there's a relationship to Playing Advice, but the same could probably be argued for reviews, buying advice, setup and repairs, notation requests ... I don't think there's a serious risk of the discussion getting lost if it is moved to Theory, and in fact in might actually be easier to locate it later if not buried in the volume of Playing Advice. For the same reason I'd favor a new forum for recording.

None of this is any big deal to me, though, so if most people prefer that the topics remain where they are, I'm fine with that.

I'm just thankful that at FHO we can have a discussion like this instead of someone autocractically taking action and setting off a war.

Janet
"Curiosity killed the cat but satisfaction brought it back." -my grandmother, Bertha Morgan Nelson

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wormbower - Posted - 03/23/2008:  18:14:38


Ok, I moved Fiddlerdi's thread (Beginning Music Theory using your Fiddle Strings)to Music Theory where it belongs (at least as long as we have a Music Theory forum). For now we'll keep the other one in Playing Advice.

Paul

Anything worth doing is worth doing poorly. -Faith Petric
The chief enemy of creativity is common sense -Pablo Picasso


Edited by - wormbower on 03/23/2008 18:15:07

fiddlerdi - Posted - 03/23/2008:  19:53:17


I think moving the advice I had shared might cause some folks to miss out on something that is simple and useful in playing. Dave's addition was great and very helpful to me. I would probably not have even bothered to read the Music Theory Forum. If I was a beginner I would be intimidated by that forum. My thoughts were not really theory related only an interesting fact about the fiddle strings. Kind of subliminal theory maybe ?LOL
I think I made a mistake by using the words Music Theory in the title.

FiddlerDi


Edited by - fiddlerdi on 03/23/2008 19:54:24

wormbower - Posted - 03/23/2008:  20:07:58


I know exactly what you mean, FiddlerDi, which is why I'm opening up the question about keeping the Theory forum. But the fact is that your thread really is theory. I think our mission for now is to steer beginners over to the forum. Carroll & Janet make a good point about the searchability issue. Which brings up something else I've thought about for a long time. I wish the search engine (the main search, not the Google search) could search more than one forum at a time. Instead of having pull-down menus, maybe have check boxes for which forum(s) you want to search, or at least a menu item for "search all forums."

Paul

Anything worth doing is worth doing poorly. -Faith Petric
The chief enemy of creativity is common sense -Pablo Picasso

ladymuse - Posted - 03/24/2008:  02:36:24


I see it being helpful -

I am a theory junkie - (as a composer) and have a high respect for the fact that it is a fairly universal way of taking the subject of music and making it mostly universally applicable to any instrument or music - (western music in the broad sense )

And whether one is going by ear or reading, there are some pretty solid shared agreements on what you HEAR - where it goes, and why it works - and that is the theory behind what we have agreed on sounding correct -
- and it's a heck of a lot faster to explain a MODAL scale and demo it -
and how you can play it in any key - , say - then - well; there's this weird scale I like but I don't know how to explain it -

What I feel (and it makes me laugh) is that there is a bit of a bias as an undercurrent from fiddlers about "knowing any theory" as opposed to " just play be ear" (what me worry?) (even wormbower spelled it Threory) and that made me chuckle! - (no offense intended wormbower! Theory is a interesting word - !)

Fiddle - Now it is true that one starts out pretty much playing a melodic instrument - One string sounding - (and the main relationship between that line you are playing and your fingers and bowing - )and there is a history of tunes to learn by ear -

where as at BHO, you are dealing with melody, AND chords, so the theory is built in from the start - (like the word "chord"!) you are learning relationships right off - whether lead sheets or tab - there is rhythm built right in - relationships - you got more than one finger going -
not quite the same with fiddle -

But there are those of us who do love theory - and though we may play by ear or naturally, without thinking about it - the more you know about why this thing called music is so delicious, and how it works, well, the more you gain in enjoyment and recognition, and retention (new melody, etc) or knowing where the harmony you hear is on the fiddle - (whoops! theory!)
- and the better you can explain something to someone - and makes it faster to pick up on a pickin/sawing partner's style - or you hear a certain riff - and can retain it to play yourself - .cause theortically, you recognize with little attn. that the guy started on the 3rd, did a run up (slid on a flatted 7th to a natural) to the octave with a triplets thrown in, - (say what?) But you have already recognized it and understood it all - so you too can play it)

So I think that the theory section is a great way to have access to it - when someone says well hey - I want to know more about this -

as far as playing advice goes, and the fiddle tied in, consider that a lot of non-theoretical ear- fiddle players use their instruments for describing things - (that are covered in general music theory - but some may not about it)
Not to say that is wrong at all - but that's the visual aural lanquage side - as opposed to the theoretical language - (hey! we're bilingual!)

Not a right or wrong - better or worse thing at all - just two different lingos to get the same end phenomenon - when someone discusses wanting to know about harmonies, or drones or double stops, - as to how? it almost always turns into a bit of theory of 3rds and 6ths, 5ths, tonics (I mean - what are scales?) etc -

I think that the more you pick up theory - the more your horizons, and your enjoyment of self and others playing, and the speed of understanding into application goes. A lot of what people shy away from I think, is not realizing that theory is merely what you hear and play codified into words and symbols - - like mnemonics -
And it saves you time groping for an explanation or answer -you know where to find it-

a major scale can be played as a major sounding scale no matter where you start it - so would you consider it a good thing to know how it's made up so you can instantly pretty much play it on C or shining G#? (without really thinking about it?) (and here we see theory applied to play


Edited by - ladymuse on 03/24/2008 06:50:00

wormbower - Posted - 03/24/2008:  09:24:08


quote:
Originally posted by ladymuse (even wormbower spelled it Threory) and that made me chuckle! - (no offense intended wormbower! Theory is a interesting word - !)



Oops!

All typos aside (Freudian or otherwise), I'm not for on second arguing that theory isn't important (hey, I'm a scientist--I LIVE for theory ). In fact, my reasoning for rolling the Theory forum into playing advice is that music theory is SO important for learning how to play the fiddle that many people aren't seeing important threads because they never visit the Music Theory forum. So, I'm really trying to elevate the exposure of the music theory discussions. The way I see accomplishing that is either to move them into playing advice or to (somehow) point more people over to our existing Music Theory forum.

Paul (who sometimes kan't spell )

Anything worth doing is worth doing poorly. -Faith Petric
The chief enemy of creativity is common sense -Pablo Picasso


Edited by - wormbower on 03/24/2008 09:25:27

ladymuse - Posted - 03/24/2008:  22:17:46


Hiya Worm!!! LOL!

Take no offense please - it is simply a funny thing - - as I have two students I work with(coach) when they need it - and I have observed with them the - (hey just want to play - why do I need to know theory? )
_
and they BOTH misspelled it@ - (and they can spell!) one of them mentioned that "theory in Physics" is easy - but theory in Music is a lofty Hieroglyphic set of brain runes - so there Was a bit of back off of it - (like a phys manifestation of wanting to run away -)

We handled that, and one guy was blown away (once I explained how chords relate to fiddle - and had him play tonic notes against the melody (versus any note) until he suddenly realized that this "basic" (and why the word 'tonic' or 'root' was used - vs just Note of the chord ) was a good thing to know! Chords threw him - but only because when he would play with someone, they had never explained WHAT a chord was - and that it works in every key !!!-

So now - he wants to learn to read, so that he can simply find out the notes 1-3-5-8 in any given scale, so that he understands what notes he can also play - (starting with basic keys).

Watching someone's eyes light up because of a simple definition - AND finding out it was "THEORY!" - well, he literally changed his tune! He's Jazzed!!! A slow "Star of the County Down", with him playing simple (by ear) arpeggios from a lead sheet - (chord letters written in) Was the sweetest thing I have heard as harmony!
His face was truly amazing. (all screwed up concentration - Avid!)

It was a great little lesson - and he then wanted to go home to his unused tune books and "get his "Notes/chords down: (Keys of C, G AND D!! ) .So I am totally with you!

and you can misspell around me anytime - since I often hit the next key over (blush blush ) in a hurry and forget to double check all the time!- can we say TYPO? LOL! Jen

jen (ladymuse)


Edited by - ladymuse on 03/25/2008 17:53:19

scrubber - Posted - 03/25/2008:  13:44:02


I see music theory as a post mortem event. Something musical (magical) happens, and listeners say "Hey, what was that all about!!?" Music theory is the means whereby one may attempt to explain what has happend in terms other musicians can understand and apply. In performance traditions it is ludicrous to think that music theory is tangental, since the evolution of the tradition depends on the acknowledgement (or rejection) of the new ideas expressed...

There is (and should be) some overlap between purely 'theoretical' and 'performance' applications. Music is more than just theory or practice -- it is a splendid combination of both!


Edited by - scrubber on 03/25/2008 13:57:07

banjoscotty - Posted - 03/26/2008:  07:08:20


Leave the webmaster to HIS business ...
He set this site up for "who-so-ever-will."
And it's free.No body forces anyone to go
to any of these threads .It's our choice.
If you don't approve of the Music Theory thread.
Just leave it alone...

Scotty

Don't be fiddlin around with
another fiddlers fiddle

OTJunky - Posted - 03/26/2008:  07:18:52


quote:
banjoscotty wrote:

Leave the webmaster to HIS business ...

I doubt this is the way it works...

First, nobody gets anything right the first time so I'm guessing Eric likes feedback on how to improve things.

Second, the health of the site going forward likely depends on attracting new members so that we have enough critical mass to eventually support support advertising. So, it's important that the site be arranged in such a way that it meets the needs of the members.

So, in the long run this is only going to work the way it's supposed to if we encourage feedback from the members about how things might be changed for the better.

--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"

banjoscotty - Posted - 03/26/2008:  09:01:30


OT Junky,
I'm sure feedback helps.I guess what I should have
said is this isn't the first time Eric's been around the
mountain.I believe that if he chose to have a theory
thread,then so be it.If there be any feedback,let it be to
improve the thread,,not remove or replace it.For those
who feel that the thread is useless to them,,it will be
helpful to others.Sorry about the "head-butting".Just MHO.

Scotty

Don't be fiddlin around with
another fiddlers fiddle

wormbower - Posted - 03/26/2008:  09:13:54


If anyone has ideas for improving the Music Theory forum (e.g., attracting more people to it), I'm all ears. Like I said before, I'm not for a second arguing that music theory isn't valuable. I just see the Music Theory thread as being underutilized, and don't want some of the terrific discussions there to go unnoticed.

I think Eric wants to hear feedback on what works and what doesn't (he did, after all, create this Improvements and Suggestions Forum). First, the Fiddle Hangout doesn't have to be a complete mirror of the banjo hangout, since fiddlers don't face exactly the same issues as banjo players. Second, I don't think Eric plays the fiddle (yet!), so he isn't completely aware of these issues.

Paul

Anything worth doing is worth doing poorly. -Faith Petric
The chief enemy of creativity is common sense -Pablo Picasso

tango_grass - Posted - 03/26/2008:  13:34:47


The music thoery forum is needed.

Thoery is a critical part of music, and those who want to discuss it can go there. I think topics that are thoery related but not placed in the proper forum, should be moved. Dont forget, word is still getting out about this site, we'll have the thoery traffic soon.

Chris,

The VZ Valley Boys
The Official Tango_Grass Myspace

+ =

ladymuse - Posted - 03/26/2008:  19:40:22


As far as attracking more people to it - those who are conversant with it might look for simple areas that fiddlers may have questions on - and post them -
for example, yes, I play and write leadsheets - (lyrics and chords) but I well remember as a fiddler long time gone (kid), when I saw my first lead sheet - and didn;t have total command over how one applied to fiddling - it also came in handy when learning to write them standardly, although I didn't play a chorded instrument - chord symbols and what they mean) so I posted that -

Not all fiddlers think in chords, and harmony is a biggie!

I am hoping it becomes beneficial to some - because although I just play by ear most of the time now, if there had been an easy reference shhet for reading and writing, it would have nee very helpful!

So I think that we who have a use for it should be somewhat resposible for making it known - just look at the responses to when you moved FiddlerDi's -
so many on this forum are not necessarily out there with teachers or players close - and little confusions can really slow one down -

jen
*see my homepage (blog) In Defense of music theory-whether you know it or not - you use it everytime you play!! -


Edited by - ladymuse on 03/26/2008 19:42:49

Johnny Thomasson - Posted - 03/26/2008:  19:42:10


I reckon I ought to clarify my post above too. I voted to kill it, but that doesn't mean I think theory isn't an important topic. Many years ago I worked 5+ hours every day to learn to fiddle. I progressed rapidly, then hit a brick wall. A friend, a (killer) jazz guitar player told me if I wanted to take my playing to a higher level, I would have to learn theory. And he was right. He got me started, and I studied on my own after that. I would offer the same advice he gave me to anyone, regardless of what instrument they played.

My put was that the topics I've seen posted in the theory forum would meld nicely into the playing advice forum. I haven't searched the archives, but the topics I've seen posted there were not pure theory. I'm reasonably sure some have been, but those I saw were theory topics related to playing the fiddle. Another point, that forum doesn't see much traffic. Check for yourself.

More forums equals more work for our moderators whose only compensation is our appreciation, which we don't express nearly often enough. I am as guilty as anyone. It would be great to have a separate forum for every conceivable type of topic, just not practical. So it comes down to a trade off, that being a manageable number of forums that offer the greatest benefit to the members. IOW, the biggest bang for the buck.

During my time here, I've observed there is significant interest among many members in electronics and recording. And there seem to be a lot of members with some pretty indepth knowledge to share in that area. There are several lengthy threads scattered through various forums on that general subject, yet there is no electronics and recording forum. To me it just seemed a mis-utilization of limited resources to maintain a theory forum that has only three active topics in the last 30 days, when there are other topics that lots of people seem to want to talk about.

Again, I did not mean to imply that theory is not important. I apologize to anyone who took it that way. A working knowledge of theory is an absolute must if you want to play well. If anyone is having trouble with it, come to my house and I'll teach you. Free of charge. And I'd like to take this opportunity to thank Eric and all the moderators for the time and effort they put in to maintain this great forum for all to benefit from.

Respectfully,

Johnny Thomasson
Aledo, Texas

wooliver - Posted - 03/27/2008:  12:14:41


i wish people wouldn't imediately equate music theory to reading notation. Reading notation is a small slice of a bigger package. And i wish people wouldn't assume that people that play, as they say "by ear" are ignorant of music theory as a whole. Everybody has a some sort of bias because they walk in their own shoes all day. There is what we call a working knowledge of music. This too is just a part of the bigger package. Like everything in music, it's a personal choice.


Webpage updated 3/5/08

rastewart - Posted - 03/28/2008:  21:13:23


quote:
Originally posted by wooliver

i wish people wouldn't imediately equate music theory to reading notation. Reading notation is a small slice of a bigger package. And i wish people wouldn't assume that people that play, as they say "by ear" are ignorant of music theory as a whole. Everybody has a some sort of bias because they walk in their own shoes all day. There is what we call a working knowledge of music. This too is just a part of the bigger package. Like everything in music, it's a personal choice.



This is very true. I have long years of experience (strictly as a student and amateur) in classical and choral music, all very note-based. I have had to go deeper into theory since I started learning how to improvise on the piano (using chord symbols rather than a full score) and since getting more serious about the fiddle (which for me is mostly by ear once I've learned a tune) than I ever did when all I did was read music, and I still have far to go.


_____________________________________________

... in savage and impenetrable darkness with chaos and pandemonium before me, and the demon madness of that night-baying viol behind me.--H.P. Lovecraft

Johnny Thomasson - Posted - 04/11/2008:  19:59:40


quote:
Originally posted by wormbower


... I don't think Eric plays the fiddle (yet!)...
Paul




Somebody git a rope...



Johnny Thomasson
Aledo, Texas USA

wilford - Posted - 06/01/2009:  10:14:47


Theory is the structure of the language of music. Notes & rhythms are it's words. Without theory, music would still be pre-dark ages in development.
In addition to the very helpful posts here, visit my blog spot and see if there's anything there that might help, too.
www.thesoundmillblog.blogspot.com

Happy is the wise man who, with moderation and vigour, is serene and in harmony, not consuming himself with evils, futilities or excitements, nor becoming enervated by fear, or burning with desires and envy.
Cicero, 106-43 b. C. www.frederickwarner.com

FiddlPat - Posted - 06/06/2009:  14:55:10


Well, there's theory, and then there's fact. Maybe we could call it a 'Music Fact' forum.

Deep in the mountains of South Louisiana.
Tune the fiddle perfectly just, then lose your temper.

Musicman93 - Posted - 08/04/2009:  18:13:38


quote:
Originally posted by banjoscotty

Leave the webmaster to HIS business ...
He set this site up for "who-so-ever-will."
And it's free.No body forces anyone to go
to any of these threads .It's our choice.
If you don't approve of the Music Theory thread.
Just leave it alone...

Scotty

Don't be fiddlin around with
another fiddlers fiddle



I agree. Some people probably like the music theory forum, no one is forcing you to go there, and I think Mr. Schlange has enough to do.

-John

"overwhelming force may crush truth to earth but,
crushed or not the truth is still the truth." -John S. Tilly

fiddlepogo - Posted - 08/05/2009:  00:24:23


I think we should keep the Music Theory Forum.
There are some people who are analytical, and like to know
all about theory.
Some people just want to play by ear and forget about all that other stuff.
For instance, if you even mention the Greek name for a mode, they'll get indignant like you cussed 'em out!!!
Or maybe their eyes will just glaze over.

So for the sake of peace, I think it's best to hide such things in the music theory forum.

Hey, maybe <bowing> discussions should go in the music theory forum, whaddya think???


Michael- Old Time 90% of the time!

"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"

http://http://c1.ezfolk.com/bands/1088/index.php
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)

BanjoBrad - Posted - 08/05/2009:  11:09:36


"Hey, maybe <bowing> discussions should go in the music theory forum, whaddya think???
"

Or maybe a special "Bowing Knock-Down-Drag-Outs" forum?

Forum Rules and Guidelines
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Brad
"D n A, the keys of life.", Big Jim Griffith
"To make music is the essential thing to listen to it is accessory." - Charles Seeger
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fiddlepogo - Posted - 08/05/2009:  11:54:59


quote:
Originally posted by BanjoBrad

"Hey, maybe <bowing> discussions should go in the music theory forum, whaddya think???
"

Or maybe a special "Bowing Knock-Down-Drag-Outs" forum?




LOL!!!

Michael- Old Time 90% of the time!

"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"

http://http://c1.ezfolk.com/bands/1088/index.php
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)

mudbug - Posted - 08/05/2009:  17:16:07


Of course theory is important.

Of course more people are interested in the nuts and bolts of playing, and discussing of same, then delving into theory.

And it probably will never change.

But theory will be there when the individual is ready for it.

rafa - Posted - 08/05/2009:  17:55:11


Hello all, I think amusic theory category is essential ,there is so much an inquiring mind wants to know. In my opinion it would be one of my favorite places to participate in. So many questions so little time!

Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 08/05/2009:  21:52:53


Generally most fiddlers know all they need to know about theory--a C9 chord means you play C nine times; a Cm is a minor chord and thus not as important as a major C chord; a melody is a series of those dotted things on a music sheet whilst harmony is two or more of those dots hanging out together, on top of one another even, and a disharmony happens when these "together" dots are only a minor second apart, for instance, and so on, ad infinitum, carpe diem. So let's forget about theory and concentrate instead on bowing patterns, classical technique, rosin, and....

She was only a whiskey maker, yet I loved her still.

lrhamp - Posted - 08/07/2009:  15:57:44


Yes ---- We need the Music Theory Forum. Maybe Kenny Baker may learn something from it. Then----We'll really get some good fiddle music. You Think?????

lrhamp



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