Rene - Posted - 09/08/2010:  19:24:51

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Just replaced the bridge (flattened it ) and added a set of Helicore Mediums, the tone is much warmer, softer, however I've lost some volume. It needs to be a little louder and more fuller, which direction do I need to go with the sound post? We have moved it some (itsy bitsy bit) but don't want to do much until we can find out which direction to go.

giannaviolins - Posted - 09/08/2010:  19:56:56

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You did two things that might soften the tone. Getting what you want is very likely to involve more than one minor adjustment.

Do you know that the instrument lost projected volume? It's not always evident to the player. Sometimes ones loud under the ear aren't putting much out. And ones that seem a bit quieter are really cranking energy into the room.

oldtimestrings - Posted - 09/08/2010:  20:27:00

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Helicore mediums do seem to work for a lot of people, but my experience with them is that they sounded and felt a bit mushy and wimpy. You might try Helicore heavies (which are not much different tension-wise than other brands' mediums), or a different string like Prims or Chromcors (if you want steel core).

WoodshopFiddler - Posted - 09/08/2010:  20:36:04

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If you want a good sound out of your fiddle then you should not use Helicores. They are meant for people that aren't too concerned with tonal clarity, volume and the ability to be tunified.

Either try Prims or let your Helicores settle in for a few days.



edit: added the little smiley thingy.

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Edited by - WoodshopFiddler on 09/08/2010 20:37:03

Barry1963 - Posted - 09/08/2010:  20:41:07

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there are folks here with far,FAR more experience than I. that said, its been my limited experience that moving the post closer to the bridge results in a brighter tone and moving it away leans towards a bassier sound (bassier a word ?) Too far away from the bridge has a kind of hollow sound to me.

I bought a 6 pack of cheap bridge blanks a while back when I was learning to cut my own. they lost volume but it was a learning tool. When I cut a better quality bridge my volume came back. But like I said, Im in the learning phase and my advice is based on minimal experience.

echord - Posted - 09/09/2010:  07:20:43

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Wouldn't flattening (lowering) the bridge make the fiddle have less volume?? Also, the quality of the bridge? I always thought bridge height affected volume.

hardykefes - Posted - 09/09/2010:  07:26:04

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Reducing the bridge hight can (! or can not) result in loss of volume due to reduction of tension. A higher bridge can (! or can not) reduce volume due to more dampening.
When changing bridge hight sometimes the bridge thickness (in particular at the feet) might have to be changed or the openings at 'kidneys' or 'heart' might have to be adjusted.
Remember: the bridge is technically spoken a bandpass with dampening characteristic. The correct sound-conducting effective mass is crucial.
The sound post will not compensate for a poor adjusted bridge (and vice versa). Unless the sound post was very off in the first place the volume is rather subtle be effected when optimizing the position.
You rather adjusted balance and the harmonics for 'complete' sound. It's true, it does effect volume a little but not as much as you probably are looking for.
Important: use hard and seasoned wood for the bridge, don't save a couple bucks here, you might ending up buying the better one anyways.

coelhoe - Posted - 09/09/2010:  07:50:04

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I settled on Helicore 310 W sets several years ago, and they work fine for me in many different venues, and with different instruments. You don't say what you used before, but if they were a synthetic core, you might want to try slightly different bowing pressure. For me anyway, synthetics seem to bow differently. Reduced bowing might cause reduced volume, though as others have mentioned, you really need to have someone else play the fiddle at a bit of distance from you.

With Helicores, though, you do need to watch for rosin build up on the string, and wipe them off after each playing. This is probably true for all strings, actually,

hardykefes - Posted - 09/09/2010:  11:06:36

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COELHOE :"...Reduced bowing might cause reduced volume..."
This is not necessarily true. I am a fan of using as little bow as possible and as much as necessary by maintaining a good tone.
This technique increases speed and precision and you very rarely run out of bow.
I don't bow steel strings differently than synthetic strings. At least I'm not aware of this. But synthetic strings give a little more way.
When applying bow pressure though hand rotation as opposed to using the weight of arm this difference is not really a big thing.

Rene - Posted - 09/09/2010:  15:59:21

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Interesting.........but at about 30.00 a set for the strings, I'll play them out for awhile. Thanks for the input. I may try and put the old bridge back on and see what happens, although my doublestops are much better with the flatter bridge.

woodwiz - Posted - 09/09/2010:  16:44:25

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quote:

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Originally posted by hardykefes

COELHOE :"...Reduced bowing might cause reduced volume..."
This is not necessarily true. I am a fan of using as little bow as possible and as much as necessary by maintaining a good tone.
This technique increases speed and precision and you very rarely run out of bow.
I don't bow steel strings differently than synthetic strings. At least I'm not aware of this. But synthetic strings give a little more way.

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Ditto. "Just enough" works well for me. Lets me play faster with less energy. Volume's never a problem.

Making a fiddle louder depends on a lot of basic things to start with. Problem is when you don't know what the basic stuff is supposed to look like.

Bridge feet making full contact all the way around, zero gaps?

Good, hard bridge, cut well?

Sound post fit properly and in a good location?

String clearances OK? Too low an action reduces volume very noticeably, IME. Don't know whether that is related to bridge height or strings being damped against the fingerboard. I'm leaning toward damping when the E is below about 2.5mm, and the G below 4mm. Varies with fingerboard contour.

Bowing: bow the string, using different speed and pressure. Watch the string to see what makes it vibrate the widest. That's when it's producing the most volume. Could also use a DB meter with tuning software.

Bow closer to the bridge.

Strings: some strings are louder than others. Helicore heavies, Evah Pirazzis, heavy gauge in general.

That's a start, anyway.

Fuller sound comes from sound post fit (not so much location), bowing technique, string selection.

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Edited by - woodwiz on 09/09/2010 16:52:36

coelhoe - Posted - 09/09/2010:  17:42:31

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Hardy: Many of the old dance fiddlers i learned from (unfortunately, now all long dead) pointed out that synthetic strings have more elasticity and bounce back or reflect back the bow's energy. This has been my view as well, i.e. that bowing on metal core strings is different than bowing on synthetic core. Possibly, persons with along incubation in classic technique, such as yourself, either don't notice the difference or are indifferent to it. I don't think it is my imagination, though.

Yep, just enough bow to get the job done.

As to strings, well....De gustibus....

fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/09/2010:  17:51:06

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I was gonna suggest the Helicore Heavies too.

I haven't used them, but in my experience with D'Addario Preludes, D'Addario's definition of string gauges runs on the light side, and my experience with the Preludes parallels peoples experience with Helicores exactly-
mediums were wimpy, heavies were much more satisfying.

Prim mediums in contrast do feel like mediums.

Other things that will give you more volume:
Maybe a new bow!!! Some bows are just louder on a specific fiddle than others.
Possibly a tighter bow, if you've been keeping it slack.
I recommend tightening to just where you feel the adjuster knob giving you resistance for
the best tone and control.
If you start using steel wrapped strings on a solid steel core like
Prims or Thomastik Precisions (I recommend Lights),
you can scrape off some of the colored fabric socking off of the afterlength with your fingernail.
Freeing up more afterlength will make them a bit louder. Whichever string is the weakest sounding
is the one I remove more fabric socking off of.

Make sure your bridge is seated properly by "burping" it with a little wiggle.
Check to make sure the G and E strings are not touching the sides of the pegbox.
Check to make sure the chinrest posts aren't touching the edge of the top.

Rene - Posted - 09/09/2010:  18:51:48

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I liked the volume before, however the tone was a little sharper, harsher. Now I have a warm mellow tone I'm very pleased with, but it needs a little more life and volume. The husband thinks it sound great. Why, oh why did I pick the fickle fiddle as my instrument of choice :)

fiddler59 - Posted - 09/10/2010:  04:20:50

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Thomastik SuperFlexible Med. gauge are a little brighter and louder than Helicore heavies based on my experience. Plus they last a long time compared to Helicore strings. Just another option for you to try....

David B

bj - Posted - 09/10/2010:  07:59:48

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This is my opinion, but based on watching Bill cut my bridge. If you did the bridge cutting yourself, then maybe you need to practice a bit more. And it could be that taking a snicker of wood off here or there, checking the bridge feet fit, and maybe thinning down the edge a bit might do it, if you do it in the right places. If you put the old bridge back on and have the volume back, then that says a lot.

One other thing. I've found with fiddle you make ONE change at a time, let it settle in a bit, then make the next change. So fiddling around with the soundpost right after puttting the new bridge on isn't something I would have done, since now you might not get the same volume out of the old bridge, especially if the soundpost is now not sitting in really good contact against the top. And you changed the strings too? Triple whammy.

I"ve also learned, when moving the soundpost around, that you take the endpin out so you can look in through that hole and check to make sure the grain is going right and the contact against the top and back are good.

But I'm an amateur, so what do I know?

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Edited by - bj on 09/10/2010 08:00:57

fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/10/2010:  12:16:03

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quote:

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Originally posted by bj
One other thing. I've found with fiddle you make ONE change at a time, let it settle in a bit, then make the next change.

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Amen!!!
This is my number one rule for tone tweaking ANYTHING!!!
One change- you know if it's taking you where you want to go or not.
Two changes??? You don't know what's doing what!

Woe is me if I get in a hurry and do two things before testing the results!!!

Also, I do bridge tweaks and other tweaks with dead strings. Dead strings don't change much after being loosened and tightened, since they're already dead. So you know that if the sound improves, it SURE wasn't the strings!!!
New strings add so much temporary resonance, that they would cover up any change, and make it hard to tell what is the change, and what is the strings.

Still, I'm guessing moving to Helicore Heavies will probably get you where you want to go.

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Edited by - fiddlepogo on 09/10/2010 12:46:14

woodwiz - Posted - 09/10/2010:  12:25:12

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Two more questions: How thick is the bridge top? More than about 1.5 or 1.6 mm starts to mute the sound.

Are the strings buried in the bridge? They should only be set down about 1.3 of their diameter.

Both of these things seem to make a distinct difference.

Rene - Posted - 09/11/2010:  04:41:55

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I didn't start out to make all those changes at once............I knew I wanted the bridge flattened a little and I had already pushed the strings beyond their life, the A had already thrown a give up and unraveled, and then the D string started, during the course of changing out the bridge and doing some other clean up the sound post took a nose dive so............