Tennessee Tom - Posted - 09/02/2010:  17:43:30

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Was just looking at a pic uploaded by Matilda, of a fiddle scroll with gear tuners.



I would like to hear reasons why we don't see more of this type of tuner on fiddles. I would expect one reason to be that it is not a "traditional" fiddle peg, so it does not "look" right. But by the same logic, the Wittner fine tuners we see on so many tailpieces are not traditional either. Not only that, but they screw up the afterlength and add unwanted inertial mass.

So why don't we see more gear tuners like this??

EDIT:
Oops, I see this was already covered here. Oh well....pls comment anyway!

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Edited by - Tennessee Tom on 09/02/2010 17:50:42

rafa - Posted - 09/02/2010:  17:52:54

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Hey Tom, Ive got them on one of my fiddles. Thats a good question. The only thing that I don`t like is Its a pain to put on strings. Otherwise I like mine.

DougD - Posted - 09/02/2010:  18:16:48

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Other than the stock answers of "They look ugly" and "They damage the pegbox," I think the real answer is that before the advent of steel strings they just weren't needed. With gut strings you could just get along like violins had for hundreds of years. I think its actually surprising that so many late 19th century fiddles actually have them. That might be an argument that steel strings were around earlier than 1920.

loy - Posted - 09/02/2010:  18:17:31

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Hi Tom , I have these on my stainer and would not trade them, cant imagine why more dont have them, most likely not traditional enough.

Ron Owens - Posted - 09/02/2010:  18:17:55

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Adds metal and extra weight .

bj - Posted - 09/02/2010:  18:54:02

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I tried a fiddle with them. Much more awkward to fine-tune turn those pegs out there than the wittner fine tuners in close. I'd never put 'em on a fiddle, the wittner ultralight tailpiece with the built-in tuners works fine (and it does NOT screw up the afterlength! And the ultralight IS ultralight, not heavy at all.) The fiddle didn't sit as comfortably under the chin either. I suspect it was the pegbox-heavy aspect making it feel awkward.

Learner - Posted - 09/02/2010:  20:19:02

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quote:

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Originally posted by bj

I tried a fiddle with them. Much more awkward to fine-tune turn those pegs out there than the wittner fine tuners in close. I'd never put 'em on a fiddle, the wittner ultralight tailpiece with the built-in tuners works fine (and it does NOT screw up the afterlength! And the ultralight IS ultralight, not heavy at all.) The fiddle didn't sit as comfortably under the chin either. I suspect it was the pegbox-heavy aspect making it feel awkward.

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Actually, BJ, the Wittners and similar design tailpieces do change the afterlength, which is the distance from the bridge to where the strings "break" (bend) over the contact point on the tailpiece.

As you tighten the fine tuner for a given string on a Wittner or similar tailpiece, the afterlength gets longer, causing the back tuning to get flatter as it relates to the tuning of the "front tuning" of that same string and adjacent strings. Loosening the fine tuner does the opposite. This is because the string contact point on the fine tuner adjustment arm moves farther away or closer to the bridge as the fine tuner is adjusted.

Many players may not notice or care about the difference in the resonance of the fiddle that this could cause. Which is fine if it doesn't matter to them.

There are some tailpieces with fine tuners that also incorporate a tailpiece saddle (just like a standard wood tailpiece with no fine adjusters). The string breaks over such a saddle, rather than at the adjusting arm of the fine tuner. With such tailpieces, the afterlength for each string remains fairly constant, regardless of the adjustment of the fine tuners.

Frank

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Edited by - Learner on 09/02/2010 20:35:15

Learner - Posted - 09/02/2010:  20:25:46

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Hello Tom:

I think that Perfection Pegs do a good job of providing finer adjustability at the peg box versus machine head tuners. They probably also weigh less. I guess you could consider them modern technology's improvement on tthe old machine head design.

Fiddlin Donna - Posted - 09/02/2010:  20:27:23

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Lerner, do you recall the brand names of the tailpieces w/tuners that have saddles?

bj - Posted - 09/02/2010:  20:46:31

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Learner, this wittner ultra tailpiece is designed so that the afterlength does not change. Most of the luthiers here recommend them for that reason--

prodigyinstruments.com/SearchR...+++++++++

Learner - Posted - 09/02/2010:  20:46:43

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fiddlin Donna

Lerner, do you recall the brand names of the tailpieces w/tuners that have saddles?

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Hello Donna:

I have a D'Harmonie that is built that way. I think that the Pusch, or copies of them, also incorporate a fixed saddle.

As for the D'Harmonie: my first fiddle was a Guarneri copy. Because of the shape of the belly on the top plate, the E string adjuster arm would almost touch the top plate of the fiddle. I had to make certain that the E string adjuster arm was near the top of its travel (by judiciously adjusting the E string peg), to keep the fine adjuster arm away from the fiddle top. But then I traded that in for a fiddle based on an Amati design, and moved the D'Harmonie to the newer fiddle I now have plenty of room between the fidde top plate and the fine adjusters. So the moral of the story here is that the D'Harmonie may fit some fiddles better than others. Also, it is crazily expensive. A final caveat is watching how you install the strings in the adjuster arms. It seems to work better if you turn the little metal rings at the end of the strings such that the holes face "sideways", rather than facing up. The fine adjusters then seem to be better able to pull the strings downward through the tailpiece slots as you adjust them.

From reviews that I've read about the Pusch, it has been reported that you may have to insert the strings from underneath the tailpiece up through the slots, rather than down through the top, when changing strings. This could be awkward on some instruments. But the plus side is that a Pusch style tailpiece is much less costly than the D'Harmonie, which makes it easier on the wallet to try out.

Best wishes,

Frank

Learner - Posted - 09/02/2010:  20:58:10

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quote:

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Originally posted by bj

Learner, this wittner ultra tailpiece is designed so that the afterlength does not change. Most of the luthiers here recommend them for that reason--

prodigyinstruments.com/SearchR...+++++++++

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Hello BJ:

Maybe this is a new design. But it looks just like every other Wittner or copy that I've seen. It's hard to tell from a picture, but it sure looks the same, unless there has been a basic change to the mechanism from those I've seen that is not reflected in the picture.

Notice that the "saddle" for each string is built onto the finer tuner arm. As you tighten the arm, the saddle moves away from the bridge.

When I had a Wittner style tailpiece, I used to set all the fine tuners so that the tuner arm saddles all "lined" up. Then I'd adjust the tuning pegs on the pegbox to get the strings in tune (or as close as possible). I'd then finish up with the fine tuners to get the final tune. Finally, I'd then make fine adjustments to the bridge position to get the average afterlength correct.

Using this technique, I could get pretty accurate back tuning. But a fine tuning tailpiece with a fixed point common saddle is more convenient.

I could see that some luthiers would say that the afterlength on a Wittner style tailpiece "does not change". That may be because they are comparing them to "individual" add-on metal fine tuners that you add to an existing wood tailpiece. So for a relative comparison (individual add-on fine tuners versus a Wittner), I could see that such a comment would be "mostly" true.

Best wishes,

Frank

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Edited by - Learner on 09/02/2010 21:01:05

giannaviolins - Posted - 09/03/2010:  03:30:59

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The afterlength on a standard tailpiece doesn't compensate for the variations between the different strings. So the afterlength tuning can't be 'perfect.' The afterlength variations with the Wittner Ft changes a small bit. I doubt there's that much difference in overall effect.

Does anyone mess with the fret on a tailpiece to ensure perfect afterlength tuning for each string? What's the effect?

David M. - Posted - 09/03/2010:  06:16:02

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I had a guitar guy tell me once that he doesn't know WHY fiddlers don't use these geared pegs because they're easier and more modern. I tried them once and they're a pain, to me. They're easy to fine tune and might eliminate need for tailpiece tuners, but all the turning to get the string wound when installing it drove me crazy.

I also had a luthier tell me that they were put on cheaper fiddles, but I can't say that's true or that I believe it.

Diane in Chicago - Posted - 09/03/2010:  06:22:32

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You can use a guitar/mandolin string winder when you first load the strings on, does all those turns nice and quick.

RobBob - Posted - 09/03/2010:  06:28:21

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I put some on a loud harsh fiddle once and played it cross tuned. Traded it off and a fellow I know a couple of counties away got it and said he loved the fiddle but the tuners were ugly. I told him I put them on. He looked at me like I had committed a sin. Heck, it is all in a day's experimentation. I did not think that much of that fiddle so...

woodwiz - Posted - 09/03/2010:  07:05:08

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quote:

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Originally posted by voodoo

The afterlength on a standard tailpiece doesn't compensate for the variations between the different strings. So the afterlength tuning can't be 'perfect.' The afterlength variations with the Wittner Ft changes a small bit. I doubt there's that much difference in overall effect.

Does anyone mess with the fret on a tailpiece to ensure perfect afterlength tuning for each string? What's the effect?

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Nope. You could only compensate to fit one brand, and it certainly wouldn't be worth the effort, IMHO. Never seen it done, either.

You can only tune one pair of strings, the other two intervals will usually be off. Precise afterlength doesn't make a huge difference. I set mine a little long overall. Seems to work for my customers.

I think the Wittner composite tailpieces are a fine, inexpensive solution. I like Perfection Pegs / Pegheds even better, but they cost more. I like add-on tuners least of all, but none of them are critical, IME.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/03/2010:  10:46:25

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I was told once that since you have screw holes for mounting the plates, you have added however many more holes to the pegbox
in addition to the eight already there. (The pic shows 3 holes in the plate, 2 used, one unused or the screw fell out so that fiddle's pegbox has at least 12 holes in it)
The more holes, the less wood, and the greater the tendency for a crack to go from one hole to another, especially along the wood's grain.
And a pegbox crack is one of those repairs that is so expensive to do right that it spells the end of the fiddle's useful life.

So I think the deal was, if a fiddle wasn't worth much, and the pegholes needed bushings installed (expensive to do), geared tuners were an inexpensive alternative gamble- you installed 'em, held your breath, and if the pegbox didn't crack, the fiddle was good to play for a few more years.
If it cracked, oh well, it wasn't worth much anyway.

So I don't think it was something people did because they looked cool (and definitely not because they looked "Old Timey") but
because there weren't any other economical options left.

DougD - Posted - 09/03/2010:  11:06:23

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Someone has thoughtfully scanned and posted the violin pages from several Sears, Roebuck catalogs here: maestronet.com/forum/index.php...ic=319743

I had thought that some of the cheaper instruments came with these pegs fitted, but apparently not. They are shown in the 1897 catalog though, along with steel violin strings, which proves they were widely available before the 1920's.

George Shepherd - Posted - 09/03/2010:  13:19:10

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quote:

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Originally posted by Learner


As you tighten the fine tuner for a given string on a Wittner or similar tailpiece, the afterlength gets longer, causing the back tuning to get flatter as it relates to the tuning of the "front tuning" of that same string and adjacent strings. Loosening the fine tuner does the opposite. This is because the string contact point on the fine tuner adjustment arm moves farther away or closer to the bridge as the fine tuner is adjusted.

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Back tuning? Front tuning? I never heard of these terms before. I guess front tuning refers to the tuning of the strings in front of the bridge but could someone enlighten me about back tuning?

transplant - Posted - 09/03/2010:  15:35:27

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Never heard them before either, but it seems like a clear way to talk about the tuning of the afterlength (back tuning) and how it relates to the tuning of the speaking length of the open string (front tuning).

The whole thing about fine tuners changing the afterlength seems to me more like a mental exercise than a practical concern. Using fine tuners for what they are, fine tuners, the ratio does not change by enough to matter much. The business end of a Wittner integrated-tuner tailpiece looks like this, and you can see how the manufacturer has shaped the forks that grab the strings so there is a short little "fret" to define the afterlength and ease the corner the string has to ride on. For the amount of motion that fine-tunes a string, the interval between pluck tones of the speaking length and afterlength does not change enough to mention.

It is a good idea to keep the screws run almost all the way out, making up the difference by twisting the pegs. That keeps the levers from banging into the fiddle's top, and keeps the little frets in a predictable place.

Tennessee Tom - Posted - 09/03/2010:  17:08:20

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quote:

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Originally posted by DougD

Someone has thoughtfully scanned and posted the violin pages from several Sears, Roebuck catalogs here: maestronet.com/forum/index.php...ic=319743

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I can't decide whether to get the $2.45 fiddle, or splurge on the $3.45 model!

Learner - Posted - 09/03/2010:  18:43:13

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quote:

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Originally posted by George Shepherd

[quote]

Back tuning? Front tuning? I never heard of these terms before. I guess front tuning refers to the tuning of the strings in front of the bridge but could someone enlighten me about back tuning?

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Hello George:

The back tuning / back intonation is indeed the pitch of the string when you pluck it behind the bridge. I guess that luthiers each have their own specific bag of tricks to pull the best sound out of a violin. The luthier who sold me my instrument optimizes the back tuning when he does his setups. It's part of his bag of tricks.

The idea is this: if you pluck the G string behind the bridge, and then pluck the open D string in front of the bridge, the intonation should match. If the the pitch behind the bridge on the G string is flat as related to the pitch of the D string in front of the bridge, then the bridge is too close to the fingerboard. If sharp, too close to the tailpiece. (This assumes, of course, that both open strings are already actually in tune.)

Likewise, the D back intonation should match the A front intonation, etc. The idea is to make small adjustments to the bridge position (fractions of a millimeter, actually), to get the tunings to match. It really is amazing how small a change in bridge position (or after length) will affect the back intonation.

I have employed this technique, and at least to my untrained ears, it does seem to make a noticeable difference. The fiddle seems to resonate much more freely when the back length is set for the proper back intonation. But, maybe I'm just imagining some of it.

When I previously used a Wittner style tailpiece, I found that if I did too much adjusting with any one of the fine tuners (such that the particular tuner was much out of line with the other fine tuner levers), that I couldn't get the back intonation on that string to come in properly. As such, I used to try to keep all of my fine tuners set at the same position, do the rough tuning with the pegs, and then only make small adjustments with the Wittner fine tuners. That helped keep all the back intonatons mostly true.

With a Pusch or D'Harmonie, one can adjust any of the fine tuners all the way to the end of its travel, while the other tuners are left alone, without affecting the back intonation of that string appreciably. This is because the string saddles are in fixed postions, and don't change as the fine tuners are adjusted.

As I said earlier, some may not notice or care about the difference.


Best wishes,

Frank

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Edited by - Learner on 09/03/2010 18:53:46

Tennessee Tom - Posted - 09/03/2010:  19:02:31

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Some interesting info there, Learner. I suppose it is arguable whether or not that matters for most fiddlers. However, the more I play, my ears are becoming increasingly sensitive to when a note is fingered correctly and it resonates with another string. For an expert player or a concert soloist, it would not surprise me to find this afterlength tuning makes some difference (even if it is minor by comparison).

Learner - Posted - 09/03/2010:  20:21:02

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tennessee Tom

Some interesting info there, Learner. I suppose it is arguable whether or not that matters for most fiddlers. However, the more I play, my ears are becoming increasingly sensitive to when a note is fingered correctly and it resonates with another string. For an expert player or a concert soloist, it would not surprise me to find this afterlength tuning makes some difference (even if it is minor by comparison).

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Hello Tom:

I think that you are correct about this. The luthier to whom I was referring does some work for members of the local symphony orchestra. I wouldn't expect that it would matter as much to fiddlers, due to the style of music, etc.

Frank

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Edited by - Learner on 09/03/2010 20:21:50

RGH - Posted - 09/03/2010:  22:56:00

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Edited by - RGH on 09/03/2010 22:57:35

oldtimestrings - Posted - 09/04/2010:  05:19:49

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I like the look of the geared tuners (and surprised that so many people find them "ugly"). They make the fiddle look like a little bitty bass, which is kinda cool. I also think of them as traditional, in the sense that a good number of OT fiddlers in the early to mid-20th century used them (e.g., Tommy J.). I've played a fiddle with them, but never owned one, so I can't really comment on how easy they are to use. But I dislike add-on fine tuners at the tailpiece, so obviously the geared tuners were another (maybe preferable) option for dealing with the challenges of tuning steel strings before the days of Wittner/Thomastik tailpieces and Perfection Pegs. I guess if you played steel strings you had your pick in those days: add weight to the scroll, add weight to the tailpiece, or be out of tune all the time!

George Shepherd - Posted - 09/04/2010:  12:06:54

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quote:

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Originally posted by Learner



The idea is this: if you pluck the G string behind the bridge, and then pluck the open D string in front of the bridge, the intonation should match. If the the pitch behind the bridge on the G string is flat as related to the pitch of the D string in front of the bridge, then the bridge is too close to the fingerboard. If sharp, too close to the tailpiece. (This assumes, of course, that both open strings are already actually in tune.)

Likewise, the D back intonation should match the A front intonation, etc. The idea is to make small adjustments to the bridge position (fractions of a millimeter, actually), to get the tunings to match. It really is amazing how small a change in bridge position (or after length) will affect the back intonation.

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Thanks for the explanation, it's appreciated. However, what I don't understand is, if the back intonation doesn't match the front, how does this affect the playing if the strings in front are in tune?

transplant - Posted - 09/04/2010:  12:55:33

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No matter what the afterlength, you can still play in tune on the part of the string you're used to. It has more to do with overtones, and how the fiddle rings. Pretty easy to hear the difference playing an A on the E string either a little out of tune, or right on. Right on, you can hear the open A ring sympathetically after you stop the bow. A little off, and it sounds kind of dead. Given the choice, you want "kind of dead" or "rings" ?

Similar things going on with the afterlength, as well as things I don't know about, what with the whole hammock of the tailpiece slung between bridge and saddle.

scrubber - Posted - 09/04/2010:  13:05:07

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quote:

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Originally posted by RGH

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Whoa!!

'nuff said!

dave

barretone - Posted - 09/04/2010:  16:35:19

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I've got a JTL with geared tuners. They buzzed a bit when I first got it so I put a piece of felt under each tuner and reattached them. That solved the problem. They work great, but I've never seen them on an expensive violin. I tend to think they were for ease of use or lower-cost instruments. And, as proven by the well-known fellow above, they look extra cool.

Randy

George Shepherd - Posted - 09/04/2010:  16:35:23

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quote:

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Originally posted by transplant

No matter what the afterlength, you can still play in tune on the part of the string you're used to. It has more to do with overtones, and how the fiddle rings. Pretty easy to hear the difference playing an A on the E string either a little out of tune, or right on. Right on, you can hear the open A ring sympathetically after you stop the bow. A little off, and it sounds kind of dead. Given the choice, you want "kind of dead" or "rings" ?

Similar things going on with the afterlength, as well as things I don't know about, what with the whole hammock of the tailpiece slung between bridge and saddle.

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OK, thanks for that piece of information transplant

fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/06/2010:  00:33:22

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quote:

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Originally posted by scrubber

quote:

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Originally posted by RGH

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Whoa!!

'nuff said!

dave

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Putting on those geared tuners will NOT magically do ANYTHING for your bowing
to make it more like Tommy's.
It might however make your fiddle sound a little more like his, which IMO wouldn't be a good thing.
IMO, the magic of Tommy Jarrell's fiddling was in the bowing, not the tone.

And it MIGHT make the pegbox more likely to crack.

Wood, especially old wood is an idiosyncratic thing. One piece used for a pegbox might be fine for those tuners,
another might have a weakness right where you're going to put the mounting screw holes.
If the fiddle is usable as is, you're possibly gambling away it's playability.

If I were you, I'd save the money and invest it in Brad Leftwich's DVD's, or maybe a bowing seminar if you can find one.

Oh yeah... if for any reason you want to sell the fiddle in the future, you will be limiting yourself to selling ONLY to people who either like the look of geared tuners or who don't know any better.

If I FOUND a fiddle that already had them, I'd consider buying it if I absolutely loved how it played and sounded, but keeping in mind that it might be a tough sell if I needed to get rid of it... so I'd want to love it SO much (on the basis of tone and playability, not appearance) that I'd know I'd never want to get rid of it.

scrubber - Posted - 09/06/2010:  10:38:18

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quote:

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Originally posted by fiddlepogo

quote:

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Originally posted by scrubber

quote:

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Originally posted by RGH

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Whoa!!

'nuff said!

dave

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Putting on those geared tuners will NOT magically do ANYTHING for your bowing
to make it more like Tommy's.

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Who's talking about bowing?

I consider the photo an endorsement -- TJ used them, for whatever reason. I'm not so STUPID as to think ANY 'modification' to a violin / fiddle will magically transform the sound of the performer! Let those who fear for their fiddles do what they wish...

dave

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Edited by - scrubber on 09/06/2010 10:42:52

Diane in Chicago - Posted - 09/06/2010:  11:13:02

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Fitting them on an older fiddle is a very big can of worms.

But I am interested to see if anyone is building new instruments with these in mind, rather than the retro-fit.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/06/2010:  12:31:11

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Yeah, but if you follow that line of reasoning, Tommy is ALSO endorsing
being clean shaven, and wearing a nice shirt, tie and vest along with his fedora and jacket!!!!
And what look a lot like horn rimmed glasses!!!

Sorry if I seemed to be picking on you by replying to your post.
I am reacting to a kind of romanticism connected with Old Time music,
that's both cropping up a lot on this thread, and on this forum.
It's a kind of romanticism I indulged in while younger.
It's all about what LOOKS "Old Timey", not about what actually works to PLAY Old Time fiddle.
It's a prime motivation behind chest fiddling, and I can't see any other motivation for being attracted to
these geared tuners.
(hey, I can even feel the pull of it... I admit that I think they LOOK cool... but the pragmatic aspect of fiddling
has gotten a LOT more important to me... if they don't positively benefit how the fiddle sounds, how long it lasts
and how my playing sounds, then WHY???)
Now, somewhere I have a couple of tuning pegs I found in a fiddle case that are REALLY Old Time...
they are hand carved, and rather crudely too! I'm thinking that when a fiddle had some pegs go missing,
that was what often got used before the guitar type tuners became available.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/06/2010:  12:36:41

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quote:

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Originally posted by Diane in Chicago

Fitting them on an older fiddle is a very big can of worms.

But I am interested to see if anyone is building new instruments with these in mind, rather than the retro-fit.

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Actually, I could TOTALLY see using them on a cigar box fiddle like those in yours and scrubber's avatars.
They fit the concept well, and you could make the walls of the pegbox a little thicker. And you'd avoid having to deal with a peg reamer and all.

Diane in Chicago - Posted - 09/06/2010:  12:52:14

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Precisely. Less skill needed to install these than to ream a proper peghole.

Also good for mountain dulcimers, where the weight is not a big issue.

quote:

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Originally posted by fiddlepogo

quote:

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Originally posted by Diane in Chicago

Fitting them on an older fiddle is a very big can of worms.

But I am interested to see if anyone is building new instruments with these in mind, rather than the retro-fit.

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Actually, I could TOTALLY see using them on a cigar box fiddle like those in yours and scrubber's avatars.
They fit the concept well, and you could make the walls of the pegbox a little thicker. And you'd avoid having to deal with a peg reamer and all.

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scrubber - Posted - 09/07/2010:  11:03:07

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quote:

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Originally posted by fiddlepogo

Yeah, but if you follow that line of reasoning, Tommy is ALSO endorsing
being clean shaven, and wearing a nice shirt, tie and vest along with his fedora and jacket!!!!
And what look a lot like horn rimmed glasses!!!

Sorry if I seemed to be picking on you by replying to your post.
I am reacting to a kind of romanticism connected with Old Time music,

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I think the romanticism of which you speak is important! Why are we playing OT music if we don't have an affinity for what has gone before?? (After all, is there a new old time or a post-modern old time ready to emerge?) We're stuck with what's been...

(It's always bothered me that TJ was clean-shaven -- he should have had a beard!!).

dae

fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/07/2010:  15:38:56

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Well, like I said, I indulged in that romanticism when younger myself.
Funny how selective it is though!!! (which is what I was pointing out in the post you quoted)
We pick and choose the characteristics of the past we like and want to carry on,
and reject the ones we don't.
And that selectivity is ironically the very thing that guarantees that the "new" Old Time <will> be distinct from the Old Old Time.

Such a beast already HAS emerged- it's called "festival style", IMO.

Ironically, one thing that burst the bubble of my Old Timey Romanticism was getting to meet and talk with Tommy Jarrell himself...
and if anything, he was a sharp tongued PRAGMATIST!!!

You can hear that in my favorite line of his:
"Why, that feller knows a thousand tunes- and can't play a single one of 'em!!!"

The reason why rural and small town people hold on to parts of the past isn't so much some sentimental feeling,
but because it WORKS, it ain't broke, and so they ain't a gonna fix it!!!

Anyway, I'm convinced Tommy used those mechanical tuners because
A. He could afford 'em, or they were on the fiddle when he got it.
B. They worked for him good enough

And I believe he would have been fine with anything else that worked and was affordable,
if Perfection Tuners had been cheap and available, I'm sure he could have used those, no problem.
(But they're PLASTIC you say!!! Well, I saw Tommy playing along with Fred Cockerham who was playing
on a fretless banjo with a FORMICA fingerboard!!!!)

Another thing meeting Tommy did for me, was that he was SO MUCH his own person, such a unique individual,
that it somehow seemed sacrilegious to imitate him too much... like I would end up being more like him if I too
cooked up my own individual fiddle style out of (mostly) traditional ingredients.