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Lukeonfiddle - Posted - 09/01/2010: 01:05:35
Hi all, learning my first tunes i realized that some sections/parts are more easy to play if you start using your bow up or viceversa down. If you have not available a video where the teacher show exactly the bowing for that tune, you must decide yourself the best way for an easy playing and a better result.
Not easy !!! 
Any advices ? Thank you !
ciao Luca
Edited by - Lukeonfiddle on 09/02/2010 01:09:35
mswlogo - Posted - 09/01/2010: 05:28:28
My teachers advice is, don't worry about it. Just play it and it will come naturally and there is no one way to bow folk tunes. Slurs will come naturally too. Your bowing will change over time with a tune. Make sure you are tapping your foot and to accent the down beat with the bow.
I've also heard from multiple sources to "saw stroke" a tune first before sluring and developing how you want to bow it. Saw stroke means change bow direction for each note.
I tend not to tap my foot while I'm mechanically learning a tune (slow saw stroking).
OTJunky - Posted - 09/01/2010: 06:06:06
quote:
Originally posted by mswlogo
My teachers advice is, don't worry about it. Just play it and it will come naturally and there is no one way to bow folk tunes. Slurs will come naturally too. Your bowing will change over time with a tune. Make sure you are tapping your foot and to accent the down beat with the bow.
I've also heard from multiple sources to "saw stroke" a tune first before sluring and developing how you want to bow it. Saw stroke means change bow direction for each note.
I think exactly this kind of advice has been heard from Benny Thomasson and - if memory serves - Charlie Walden. And from other members on the forum. Charlie's a member here and can correct me if I'm incorrectly characterizing his view on it. I agree with it completely - though we have some members here who advocate a more "organized" pattern based approach. --OTJ
Edited by - OTJunky on 09/01/2010 06:07:32
RobBob - Posted - 09/01/2010: 06:39:42
John Hartford said that bowing was like your signature or hand writing. Keep it neat and it will work.
fiddlenbanjo - Posted - 09/01/2010: 06:54:24
Step one is probably to think of the first note of each phrase as a down bow. If you end on a down bow and you have time, you can always pick the bow off the strings and start the next phrase with another down bow. You'll eventually get tired of doing that start slurring and think about upbowing too, just out of the need for economy of motion.
The most natural place to first try slurring notes is either when going to an open string (pull off) or coming from an open string (hammer on). But there are no rules except to be open to variations that may present themselves.
I believe there are at least 2 schools of thought on bowing  :
1. Decide on a particular bowing and stick (no pun intended)y to it for a while.
2. Just haphazardly wing it and let the bowings work themselves out on their on.
In practice, fiddlers probably do a lot of each as the work songs out on their own over time, as each approach has merit in helping you settle into your own way of bowing. It's a never ending process. As your bowing technique improves, new bowing rhythms will slowly creep into your old standards and feel like they've been there all along.
OTJunky - Posted - 09/01/2010: 07:03:03
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlenbanjo
I believe there are at least 2 schools of thought on bowing :
1. Decide on a particular bowing and stick (no pun intended)y to it for a while.
2. Just haphazardly wing it and let the bowings work themselves out on their on.
There might be at least a third way. 3. Let the tune guide your bowing and let your bowing evolve along with the evolution of your rendering of the tune. --OTJ
Dick Hauser - Posted - 09/01/2010: 07:54:52
I have often heard instructors say that there is no "wrong" way to play a tune. When I learn a new tune, I only use alternate bowstrokes and corrective slurs. I use corrective slurs when I want to change bow direction. At times I want to start a measure with a downbow, end a phrase with an upbow, etc.. Those are the only times I use a slur.
As I start playing the tune, bowing patterns naturally evolve. Sometimes it is fun to repeatedly play a tune and trying different things.
I do think it helps to place as much emphasis on upbowing as downbowing. Some styles of fidding require a player to as adept at upbowing as they are at downbowing. When doing exercises, I like to alternate starting with upbows and downbows. Now, I am comfortable bowing in either direction. In fact, I like playing upbow slurs better than downbow slurs.
I use notation a lot, but think that too often it stresses downbowing. So, I don't use any bowing direction information from the notation - just the melody.
M-D - Posted - 09/01/2010: 08:00:04
I'll go along with #3. Though I tend to down-bow on down-beats, I let the tune tell me where to go, and I just play it.
cheekee - Posted - 09/01/2010: 08:19:10
i often feel like waltzes are a bit of a free for all...but i'm starting to understand how the bow has to go to make it sound more old timey. for faster stuff like reels...my body gets confused if i am not playing a downbow on the beat and up on the ands...with a few specific exceptions. i really like celtic stuff, and i was told when i was starting out to play everything like that. down on the beat, up on the off beat, and if you have a quarter note or a cut, you have to slur the next two notes to keep the pattern going. now that i've been playing for a while, i can see that isn't true for absolutely everything, but i felt like it was a little piece of advice that got me going in an organized way where i was able to start hearing some of the differences in the patterns for myself.
notlwonk - Posted - 09/01/2010: 09:09:28
Went to a workshop at Meadow Lark music camp last week and the instructor's focus was Appalachian, he had specific strokes for the music. Made it sound like it was fresh from the hills. I had a lot of trouble keeping up with the notes let alone the bow strokes. I plan to continue on one, or maybe more, of the pieces incorporating the bowing pattern, just cause it sounds so good!
cherrypie - Posted - 09/01/2010: 09:09:51
My teacher has emphasized down bows on down beats but otherwise, she lets the tune be the guide. She'll offer suggestions, like "what would happen if we add a georgia bow here" or "a slur might make this turn around easier" but for the most part she doesn't worry about it as we are learning tunes. I think she thinks that the bowing will come as I progress and for the most part, I have noticed that too. The only issue I've had with my earliest tunes is that I've practiced them enough now that the bowing has become more ingrained and my bowing early on was more problematic. Those earlier tunes haven't progressed in the bowing like the tunes I have learned recently.
Teufelhunden54 - Posted - 09/01/2010: 09:23:09
POLL,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Do you start a song with an upbow or downbow, habitually?
fiddledan - Posted - 09/01/2010: 09:39:24
don't worry, let the tune guide you and for fiddles sakes, PLEASE don't tap. it doesn't really help, it just makes noise. if your bow arm can't do it your feet aina doin any better.
play nice,
dan
cheekee - Posted - 09/01/2010: 10:22:17
i like to start on an upbow if it is a pickup...but i'm trying to be more flexible with that and occasionally slur into the downbeat on a downbow. if it begins on the beat, i always use a downbow.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/01/2010: 15:32:35
This is a can of worms, a sticky wicket, a problem topic... but it's not your fault!!!
There is what I call "anywhichway" bowing, and what is generally called "downbowing",
although there is a minority camp called "upbowing".
What downbowing and upbowing have in common is that they have a directional preference.
The fact that so many fiddlers have a bowing style with a directional preference indicates that
upbows and downbows just AREN'T the same, in spite of attempts to pretend that they are.
Add to that that classical violin has a bias towards downbowing, and that's a LOT of people playing the fiddle/violin
that use a directional preference in their bowing.
Factors that seem to contribute to the functional difference between the feel of a downbow and the feel of an upbow:
1. Pulling vs. pushing. Ever been shopping with a shopping cart that was so full that pushing it didn't work very well?
Those front wheels could go anywhichway. Sometimes pulling a heavily loaded shopping cart is a better way to get control of it.
Well, the issue of bow direction is similar. On a downbow, a pulling motion is very natural, since most of the bow is behind the hand.
But on an upbow, most of the bow is in front of the hand, so a pushing motion is most natural. But a pushing motion tends
to not have much directional stability... it could push it to the right or the left as well as straight ahead. There IS a way of getting
some of that pulling motion into an upbow, but it's not easy to get right away, and it seems hard to explain.
Anyway, with pulling having a a firm direction, and pushing having an iffy one, it's easier to get a strong accent on a downbow than on an upbow. Attempting to do a strong accent on an upbow can cause something I call "skittering".... there's a slight wobble that to me causes an unpleasant sound.
2. Gravity. This depends some on the arch of the bridge and how tilted you hold the fiddle.
But most easy fiddle tunes tend to use the top three strings (A, D, and E) more than the bottom three strings (G, D, A)
And if the fiddle is tilted somewhat, and most of the tune is played on the A and E string, then gravity is going to be pulling more on the downstrokes than the upstrokes. Having a relaxed wrist and bowing arm is a very good thing for both tone and speed, and to avoid
using more effort than necessary, it's a good thing to put accents on downbows where gravity is going to tend to help out.
3. Bows- a variable factor-
if a bow isn't very well balanced, it's going to have even more of a bias towards one direction or another.
You could fix this with a better bow, but a beginner is in a very poor position to even JUDGE what is a better bow.
Anyway, I can play either "anywhichway" or downbowing.
If something has a lot of long notes and is played slowly, like a song tune or waltz,
it's pretty easy to bow it anywhichway.
But if something has a lot of short sawstroked notes, and needs to be played at a fast tempo,
it just seems easier and more efficient to do that with the accented notes on downbows.
Since the first note of a phrase is a very important one, it often sounds best to accent it with a downbow.
But lead in notes AREN'T so important, and really aren't normally supposed to be accented, so to me,
they naturally go on an upbow.
I think it's good to be able to use either bowing approach.
Waltzes and song tunes seem natural for ignoring the bowing direction.
But hornpipes with a steady stream of sixteenth (or eight notes, depending on the time signature)
seem natural for a down-up, down-up sawstroke approach.
This is even more true if you want the hornpipe to have a bouncy accent.
Fiddle tunes between those two extremes are probably a matter of taste... or actually, a matter of your taste in
areas like rhythmic bowing vs. smooth bowing.
If a fiddler has a very smooth gentle approach, "anywhichway" would probably work just fine.
But if a fiddler has strong, forceful accents (like Tommy Jarrell) then downbowing is the preferable way to go.
Dick Hauser - Posted - 09/01/2010: 15:50:30
POLL Response - Unless a tune starts with a quarter note or certain slurs, I tend to start playing with a downbow.
dzen - Posted - 09/01/2010: 17:28:09
This confused me starting out, too. I asked this very question here a couple years ago and got a long and tremendously interesting discussion about bowing , when this is the answer I was looking for:
Put simply, most of us down-bow on down-beats most of the time.
But if you have a single quarter note in the middle of a string of eighth notes it will cause your bow direction to become "backwards". This is where the "corrective slurs" Dick mentions come in. If your bowing direction is "backwards", just play 2 notes with one bow stroke and presto, your bowing direction is "correct". Typically, this corrective slur will come on an upbow. This is contrary to my habits as a long time guitar player, I wanted to slur like I was hammering-on on the guitar, on the downstroke.
But as you can tell from this thread these aren't hard and fast rules, let the tune guide you. If there's a fiddler you want to sound like, listen and listen and listen some more. Soon you'll be able to hear some of the bowing patterns. There are some great bowing pattern explanations and discussions on this forum.
Experiment.
And keep reading this forum. I didn't get the answer I was looking for 2 years ago, but this is the next best thing to being in a room full of good fiddlers.
Happy Fiddling, Dale
Henry George - Posted - 09/01/2010: 18:02:02
I'm also a supporter of the 'downbow' on the downbeat....And the 'upbow' on the upbeat, but that will depend on the number of notes in the pickup bar because if there are two notes the bowing could begin with a downbow. Then I would introduce the 'retake' if the phrase begins and ends on a downbow. After the tune can be played well with the saw stroke slurring would follow to keep the downbows on the beat. The bow direction can also be changed with 'driven down' or 'driven up' bows, this is when the bow stops and continues in the same direction.
The origin of the bowing signs indicate that the bow is 'pushed' and 'pulled', and they are derived from the shape of the hand in this action.
n......(downbow)......the top of this sign is flat as is the hand when downbowing, hence pushing down.
V......(upbow)...........this is the shape the fingers make when 'pulling' the bow up.
Lukeonfiddle - Posted - 09/02/2010: 01:14:26
Hey, a lot of exhaustive replies, i love this forum !
Well, at least seems there aren't fixed rules for bowing and this make me more relaxed.
I'm learning so many things from you, thank you guys !
bj - Posted - 09/02/2010: 17:00:53
quote:
POLL,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Do you start a song with an upbow or downbow, habitually?
Yes.
bj - Posted - 09/02/2010: 17:07:54
Oh, and I'm a downbow on the downbeat kinda girl. It helps to set the groove for the tune, while leaving a LOT of scope for experimentation within that (very loose) structure. And no, I don't downbow every downbeat, but I do end up downbowing most of 'em. It's the touchstone I always get back to that keeps things rhythmically strong.
An old blogpost from when I "got it" -- a lightbulb moment.
fiddlehangout.com/myhangout/bl...logid=740
Edited by - bj on 09/02/2010 17:18:31
fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/02/2010: 20:02:09
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelhunden54
POLL,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Do you start a song with an upbow or downbow, habitually?
Depends: If it has lead-in notes that have to be played, but not accented, I'll start them on an upbow. And if it doesn't have lead in notes, but begins on the first downbeat, then I'll start it on a downbow. By doing it this way, the lead in notes are always on an upbow, and the first downbeat is always on a downbow... well... almost always!!!! If you count starting with "potatoes", I always start that on a downbow. If the fiddle tune begins with a melodic triplet, then the triplet <usually> starts on a downbow, since I usually do such a starting triplet with the first note on a downstroke, and the last two on an upbow slur. (Triplets within a tune can be either way if I'm bowing the three notes individually- but those tunes are almost never Old Time, but rather Canadian, New England, Scottish, or Irish in (attempted) flavor)
Lukeonfiddle - Posted - 09/03/2010: 01:04:58
Well,
following your advices yesterday i played " Liberty " without thinking at the bow direction , leaving it to come natural. And i must say it worked, 
wooliver - Posted - 09/03/2010: 06:11:04
When you start playing you start listening more clinically. More descriminately.
If you hear a version of a tune that you favor, descriminately listen to the cadense, or bowing rythm seperate from the melody. Practice only that bowing on a single note. Once you get your bowing arm adapted to that rythm, add in the melody. If you want an exact imitation you'll probably need a recording of the tune you want to learn. I don't care to be exact. Most good fiddlers have a collection of licks, bowings and tunes, all sort of seperate and available to mix and match at will.
OTJunky - Posted - 09/03/2010: 06:23:50
quote:
Originally posted by wooliver
Most good fiddlers have a collection of licks, bowings and tunes, all sort of seperate and available to mix and match at will.
That's it - in a nutshell... --OTJ
Tennessee Tom - Posted - 09/03/2010: 09:03:11
quote:
Originally posted by fiddledan
don't worry, let the tune guide you and for fiddles sakes, PLEASE don't tap. it doesn't really help, it just makes noise. if your bow arm can't do it your feet aina doin any better.
play nice,
dan
Dang, Dan, I'm surprised to hear you say this! NO foot tapping on the porch planks!?!?!  Luca, I've been struggling with this also. It's a tradeoff between getting a natural rhythm and feel for the tune, vs always having the bow go in the right direction. When it comes to the really good fiddlers, I always hear a subtle beat emphasis that they add with the bow. If you're letting the bow direction go any which way, that becomes much more difficult, IMO. Maybe it would be easier if all tunes were 2/4 timing with 8 eigth notes per measure, but that ain't the case.
Edited by - Tennessee Tom on 09/03/2010 09:04:48
hanknc - Posted - 09/03/2010: 09:15:42
Tap your foot. Ignore the nattering nabobs of negativism.
Edited by - hanknc on 09/03/2010 09:16:45
Tennessee Tom - Posted - 09/03/2010: 09:29:50
quote:
Originally posted by hanknc
Tap your foot. Ignore the nattering nabobs of negativism.
"Nattering Nabobs" Thanks, Hank, I learnt a new word today!
Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 09/03/2010: 10:28:34
Hey Luca. I once had my teacher write down exactly how she bowed "Red Haired Boy" and "Saint Anne's Reel." And just to add a little bit on her background, she has won numerous Texas swing titles and other state titles before falling in love with Irish and then spending fifteen years to become the stellar "Celtic" fiddler she now is. Yet I now don't even look at the "patterns" she wrote down because I'm different. I now use my way of bowing. What works for her doesn't for me.
Yet I have managed to memorize the Nashville shuffle, the Georgia shuffle, the "Celtic" triplets, etc. because I enjoy having these phrases to add whenever I want to. I could not have learned them through osmosis, like most seemingly can. I had to sit down and look at the "equations"---posted on Fiddlepogo's and Reiner's homepages--before they were "under my fingers."
Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 09/03/2010: 12:00:03
quote:
Originally posted by Lukeonfiddle
[...]
Following your advices yesterday i played " Liberty " without thinking at the bow direction , leaving it to come natural. And i must say it worked [...]
[...]
I was intrigued by your particular example. I usually like to bow a group of sawstrokes, or a group of "longsaws" (2-SNE strokes) with downbows on the beats and/or on the accents (and usually, the "downbow the accents" strategy trumps the "downbow the beats" strategy, for me). But for reasons I've never been able to figure out, the first part of "Liberty" (which has 2 pairs of longsaws) just seems to want me to reverse those directions. Another one that goes against my norm (again, for unknown reasons) is the sawstroked, bowrocking section of the A part of Ragtime Annie. I wish I knew WHY those two cases seem better, to me, when bowed "backwards".
Edited by - Mike_Fontenot on 09/03/2010 15:52:03
Peghead - Posted - 09/03/2010: 12:37:25
Where you play in relation to the balance point of the bow will make the string crossings feel differently and will create individual preferences. Some like to "steer" the weight of the bow and play mostly forward of the B.P. and others like the resistance and the feel of "carrying" the weight and play on the back (frog) side of the BP. Most play somewhere in the middle but it's good to know whats going on as you cross over back and forth and at the extreams. The dynamics are different on each side of the BP. Also, (as if this wasn't complicated enough) controling the enertia (weight and speed of the bow at the moment it changes direction) can be harder or easier to manage depending on weather the string crossing is of the "inner" or "outer" variety. I feel alot better now that I've gotten that off my chest. Just play alot, the reptilian brain will figure it all out.
Edited by - Peghead on 09/03/2010 13:24:32
fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/03/2010: 18:56:37
quote:
Originally posted by hanknc
Tap your foot. Ignore the nattering nabobs of negativism.
Funny... I remembered this quote from Spiro Agnew last week myself!!! Gotta love it!!! I tap my foot...
fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/03/2010: 19:03:55
quote:
Originally posted by Mike_Fontenot
quote:
Originally posted by Lukeonfiddle
[...]
Following your advices yesterday i played " Liberty " without thinking at the bow direction , leaving it to come natural. And i must say it worked [...]
[...]
I was intrigued by your particular example. I usually like to bow a group of sawstrokes, or a group of "longsaws" (2-SNE strokes) with downbows on the beats and/or on the accents (and usually, the "downbow the accents" strategy trumps the "downbow the beats" strategy, for me).
But for reasons I've never been able to figure out, the first part of "Liberty" (which has 2 pairs of longsaws) just seems to want me to reverse those directions.
Another one that goes against my norm (again, for unknown reasons) is the sawstroked, bowrocking section of the A part of Ragtime Annie.
I wish I knew WHY those two cases seem better, to me, when bowed "backwards".
For reasons I can explain either, I often get reversed on Liberty, but it's not a big deal, because those long notes are easy to bow backwards, and somehow I can get reversed in time for the sawstroke passage. Ragtime Annie's first part has also been a problem... I sawstroke the bowrocking section down- up, but it's been hard to get right. It seems to be jelling, finally... I'm putting the lead-in notes on an upbow slur, and I think that's taking care of it.
Lukeonfiddle - Posted - 09/04/2010: 05:57:15
I'm reading and reading again all your replies, so many informations there, you are opening me an unknow and amazing world.
As i said when i introduced myself , i'm a banjo player since many years, i love banjos, i own two great Gibson prewar conversions at this time, but i'm literally fallin' in love for fiddle !
When i boguht it last June i was sure to fail, but now i'm just hooked !!!
Not easy for me to understand all your words, i must read your posts more of one time, but it's funny !
Stroke/drone/slur were just new english words for me even i knew the italian mean.
for example SLUR = LEGATURA / LEGATO
just funny , i can't stop to listen and play it,
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 09/04/2010: 06:16:20
... as a person who has vowed to swear off such discussions o'er the net, I'm finding it impossible to keep my mouth shut... this is fascinating, a fascinating topic to me. As a beginnner, mainly, myself, having only played on a regualr basis for one whole year now, when I first got a fiddle to play on... for me at least, the easiest way to play something at this stage of the game is to get a groove going... for me it's been the ol' one-tater, two-tater, what I've heard called Nasvhille Shuffle here, because people here know of so many other shuffles... anyway, for me right now, if I can get a shuffle going, D-- u d U-- d u, etc., and the downs define the beat (but aren't always on the beat... they just more or less delineate... like tell your ear where the regular beat falls)... sometimes within the comfortable groove of this shuffle, I'll throw something else (exactly what, I'm still uncertain of) that falls into the beat okay, hopefully... and it might then throw a little wrench here and there, purposely, to give the beat an extra push here and there with a shuffle that allows the ups to fall into the place that had been previously delinated by the regular downs.... then get back to the downs going along there just to make it interesting... at least for me it seems to work as a beginner, so far. I'm exploring other brave new fiddling worlds as we speak, though. I've already said too much... my internet vow is a struggle... fading... the fiddling obsession is stronger than the vow to keep away from internet discussion... anyhow... that's where I'm at now... find a groove... define the tune with it... and then jump in and out, like kids jumping in and out of a jump rope groove... but always staying true to the groove and the beats while doing so...
Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 09/04/2010: 12:51:28
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
For reasons I can't explain either, I often get reversed on Liberty, but it's not a big deal, because those long notes are easy to bow backwards, and somehow I can get reversed in time for the sawstroke passage.
It doesn't seem to cause a problem for me either, but I can't remember if I almost immediately get back on a downbowed beat after those longsaws, or not...I'll play it ASAP, and try to see what I'm doing. quote:
Ragtime Annie's first part has also been a problem... I sawstroke the bowrocking section down- up, but it's been hard to get right.
It seems to be jelling, finally... I'm putting the lead-in notes on an upbow slur, and I think that's taking care of it.
I didn't analyze what I was doing on Ragtime Annie until fairly recently...what I was playing had just evolved naturally over many years. The end result of that long evolution just FELT GOOD ... it was always a delight for me to play that tune, and I finally got curious, and wanted to figure out WHY. Here's what I figured out I was doing (although I still don't know WHY): I was starting the first 16th note (the first beat) on a downbow as usual (and I usually sawstroke two pickup notes, before that first beat), but I was slurring that downbow into the 2nd 16th note, and then bowing the rest of those bowrocked sawstrokes "backwards". Apparently, the purpose of that initial slur was (subconsciously) to reverse the sawstroking that follows in that phrase. And then I did the same thing with the second phrase (which is almost a repeat of the first phrase). After those first two phrases, I think I got back into a Nashville shuffle for the remainder of the A part, and all of the B part. (When I was just starting out, I Nashvilled almost everything...that was before I started to understand a bit about the WHY of slurs, and before I started being able to diversifying my bowing).
fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/07/2010: 14:50:51
quote:
Originally posted by Mike_Fontenot
(When I was just starting out, I Nashvilled almost everything...
You and me and probably a couple hunnerd thousand fiddlers!!! quote:
that was before I started to understand a bit about the WHY of slurs, and before I started being able to diversifying my bowing).
Now I Nashville almost NOTHING. Actually it would be more accurate to say that instead of being the bowing of FIRST choice, it's the bowing of LAST choice- I use it when absolutely NO other pattern will work!!! Would you say that the WHY of slurs is mostly to DE-emphasize certain notes or beats, and so leave the notes or beats prominent that you want to be prominent???? Perhaps my biggest problem with Nashville is it's tendency to DE-emphasize the first note of the 8 note (or 8 SNE) phrase. To me, that's an important note that should be emphasized, and most of the patterns I like do that very nicely.
Edited by - fiddlepogo on 09/07/2010 14:56:35
Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 09/08/2010: 11:44:06
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
Would you say that the WHY of slurs is mostly to DE-emphasize certain notes or beats, and so leave the notes or beats prominent that you want to be prominent????
That's a big part of the "Why" for me. I usually think of the slurs as a means of "pre-loading" the bow, so that after the slur, I've got a lot of bow available to get a "lightening thrust" on the following note, to give it a big (loudness) accent (when I want that). Of course, there are other effects of slurs that don't have anything to do with loudness. They can give you smoothness where you want it (and their absence can give you the opposite of smoothness (discreteness (?)) , where you want that). They can also (especially when combined with certain melodic patterns) give you syncopation without any loudness variations at all. In addition, a part of the "Why" for me was realizing what sorts of slurs you can use (and how you can move them around) without changing the downstream bowing directions. That allows a lot of "mixing and matching" freedom, without affecting what comes later. quote:
Perhaps my biggest problem with Nashville is it's tendency to DE-emphasize the first note of the 8 note (or 8 SNE) phrase. To me, that's an important note that should be emphasized, and most of the patterns I like do that very nicely.
Yeah, Nashville doesn't automatically accent that first SNE. You CAN accent it, with a initial fast stroke, that then slows for SNE2. But for every downbowed SNE you accent, you'll have to accent an upbowed SNE somewhere in the measure (if you want the pattern to be indefinitely repeatable), because Nashville is a "balanced pattern" (same number of downbowed SNEs as upbowed SNEs in the measure). That constraint may or may not bother any given fiddler. It definitely would bother a pure "downbow the accents" fiddler. And even for fiddlers who don't mind upbowing an accent, they may just not WANT to accent any of the melody notes that happen to fall on an upbow in that measure. In that latter case, they need to choose some other pattern for that measure. And a pure "downbow the accents" fiddler will generally prefer to use unbalanced patterns that have more upbowed SNEs than downbowed SNEs (which allow all accented notes to be downbowed).
Edited by - Mike_Fontenot on 09/08/2010 11:45:22
fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/09/2010: 00:27:51
Mike,
Thanks for clarifying your "why" of slurring... there's some stuff to think about that I wasn't conscious of.
The part on Nashville is challenging to my brain circuitry.
I think I <almost> get it!
Would you say that what you are saying about Nashville is also true of Offset Nashville?
(1-2-1, 1-2-1)
I have found that bowing quite challenging to get "right", probably because the second part has an upbow accent rather than a downbow accent. And I am mostly a downbow accent fiddler. But I think it's finally starting to "gel".
But then, that is one of the virtues of patterns... even if a pattern contains something that is contrary to your normal bowing approach, if you practice it enough, you can make it work within the pattern, although you might not be able to apart from the pattern.
Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 09/09/2010: 13:11:25
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
[...]
Would you say that what you are saying about Nashville is also true of Offset Nashville?
(1-2-1, 1-2-1)
I have found that bowing quite challenging to get "right", probably because the second part has an upbow accent rather than a downbow accent.
[...]
Yeah, any balanced pattern either doesn't accent anything, or else has equal weights of both upbowed and downbowed accents. So your "offset Nashville" pattern CAN accent both SNE1 and SNE5, because the first is a downbow, and the second is an upbow. But if you wanted to accent SNE1 and SNE7 (with the same lower loudness for all the other SNEs), it wouldn't work with that pattern, because both of those SNEs are downbowed in that pattern, and no balanced pattern can do ALL the accents with a downbow (or, ALL with an upbow). The syncoshuffle, (1-2-1, 2-1-1), is unbalanced, with 5 up-SNEs and 3 down-SNEs, and so it works well for "downbow the accents" fiddlers. The first half-measure of the syncoshuffle is identical to the first half-measure of your "offset Nashville", but the second half-measures are different. But synchoshuffle isn't well suited for accenting both SNE1 and SNE5 (and nothing else), because the first is a downbow, and the second is an upbow. But syncoshuffle is great for accenting SNE1 and SNE7. And it also works well for accenting SNE1 and SNE4, but I suspect an accent on SNE4 isn't very commonly desired. In a measure where you want to accent SNE1 and SNE5 (and no others), and if you want to downbow both those SNEs, then you need an unbalanced pattern (with at least 5 up-SNEs) which has downbows on SNE1 and SNE4. I've only thought about that a little bit, but I THINK I've convinced myself that you can't do that without having at least one half measure of the "on-beat-Georgia", like, for example, 1-3-1-3, or 1-1-1-1-1-3, or 2-2-1-3, or 1-2-2-3. (That latter one would have a pulsed-downbow on SNE5, with SNE4 being quieter). Your sawshuffle (1-1-1-3-1-1) CAN accent SNE1 and SNE4, but SNE 4 will be a pulsed upbow in the middle of that 3-slur. AND, you will need to accent some other downbowed SNE (either SNE3 or SNE7), because sawshuffle is unbalanced (5 ups and 3 downs), and therefore wants to accent more down-SNEs than up-SNEs. (I think the pulsed upbow, in the middle of a 3-slur, must feel fine to you, even though you usually like to downbow accented SNEs that are isolated (not slurred)). Smoothshuffle (3-3-1-1) is balanced, and so you can accent SNE1 with a (initially-pulsed) downbow, and SNE5 with a (mid-pulsed) upbow, with no other SNEs accented. This MIGHT be one of the ways you intuitively choose between sawshuffle and smoothshuffle: they can both accent SNE1 and SNE5, but sawshuffle requires that another down-SNE be accented, whereas smoothshuffle doesn't. But (based on your choice of names), your choice between those two patterns might more often be influenced merely by the choice of smoothness versus "discreteness", rather than the issue of needing to accent a third SNE. There IS a caveat though: the accenting constraints that I've been talking about, assume that each of the SNEs in the measure gets the SAME time value (1/8 of the total time for the measure). It's possible to mitigate those constraints, or perhaps even get around them entirely, by lengthening the time values of some SNEs in the measure, and shortening the time values of other SNEs.
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