jfrebel - Posted - 03/11/2010:  08:43:57

I have heard that fiddles because they're tuned in fifths makes them more rational tunings than say a guitar, or banjo or piano.

that melodies are easier to noodle out.

what is it about the fiddles tuning that makes it considered the most rational tuning?

what are advantages of the fiddles tuning over that of other instruments? are their any disadvantages?

why aren't other instruments like the guitar tuned in the most rational way?

woodwiz - Posted - 03/11/2010:  09:06:41

You can tune instruments a lot of different ways, and historically there have been a wide variety of standard tunings for most instruments.

The tunings that are most common nowadays have been adopted because they work best for modern music, but nothing's written in stone.

There are lots of cross tunings for violins, and lots of open and drop tunings for guitars.

Percy - Posted - 03/11/2010:  09:51:59

Regarding GDAE (standard violin tuning), I guess the only thing I can say is that you can change the key of a tune just by shifting on the strings one way or the other... the key will be different, but the fingering will be the same. I do this all the time while I'll looking for how I want a tune to sound.

Of course, this has limitations based upon the "range" of the song as to whether that's the best way to do it or not... but it works in theory, and does work on many tunes...

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 03/11/2010:  10:21:45

I believe that tunings for stringed & plucked instruments evolved because of one practical reason -- the size of the average player's hand. A violin is tuned to fifths because the average player's hand naturally covers the length of string that takes you from root to fifth. A viola isn't much bigger than a violin, at least in terms of neck length, so this explanation still holds. A guitar, meantime, is a larger instrument with a much longer neck length, and the average player's hand only stretches from root to fourth. Thus, the basic interval between the strings (with of course the exception of the b string, which is tuned to a third), is the fourth.

What this does is allow the player to go up and down the scale without having to shift hand position.

I personally came up with this explanation. I've never seen it mentioned anywhere else. But I truly believe the idea plays a major part in why stringed instruments are tuned the way they are.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/11/2010:  11:07:53

I would call it "rational" for several reasons.

1. Tuning in fifths rather than fourths gives you MORE NOTES and MORE OCTAVES under your fingers without shifting up or down the neck.
In the key of G in first position, you've got 2 and 3/8s octaves. Thats a lot!
It's more than sufficient for the sung melodies of most songs,
and sufficient for most traditional fiddle tunes without shifting.
2. Because the fiddle tuned standard (and this all applies to mandolin as well) is tuned in fifths all the way across,
if you know a tune that is played on only two strings, you can transpose it to two different keys merely by moving it over one string
to the right or left each time.
If I can play, say, Skip to My Lou in G on the D and A strings, if I move the same fingerings up on the A and E strings, I'm playing it in the key of D, if I move it to the left, I'm playing it in the key of C.
If you know a fiddle tune played on 3 strings, you can only do this transposing by moving over a string into one other key.
I often do this to sing with a tune. As a fiddle tune, Golden Slippers plays nicely on the top 3 strings, but to sing it, it works perfectly with my voice if I play the same fingerings on the bottom 3 strings where it's actually in the key of G. Same thing for "Eighth of January/Battle of New Orleans"- fiddle tune in D, song in G, same fingering, different strings.
3. Related to this, if you start with a certain key, every time you learn a new key after that, if the key is the next one over in the circle of fifths
(in either direction!), the fingering of the notes on 3 of the strings will stay the same IF you move them over a string. You will "lose" one string on one side, and then have to learn new fingerings on the string on the other side.
So...
3/4 of the fingerings in the key of C apply to the key of G if moved over one string TO THE RIGHT
3/4 of the fingerings in the key of G apply to the key of D if moved over one string TO THE RIGHT
3/4 of the fingerings in the key of D apply to the key of A if moved over one string TO THE RIGHT
3/4 of the fingerings in the key of A apply to the key of E if moved over one string TO THE RIGHT
3/4 of the fingerings in the key of E apply to the key of B if moved over one string TO THE RIGHT
AND
3/4 of the fingerings in the key of C apply to the key of F moved over one string TO THE LEFT
3/4 of the fingerings in the key of F apply to the key of Bb moved over one string TO THE LEFT
3/4 of the fingerings in the key of Bb apply to the key of Eb moved over one string TO THE LEFT
3/4 of the fingerings in the key of Eb apply to the key of Ab moved over one string TO THE LEFT
3/4 of the fingerings in the key of Ab apply to the key of Db moved over one string TO THE LEFT
3/4 of the fingerings in the key of Db apply to the key of Gb moved over one string TO THE LEFT

So, by teaching keys one by one following the circle of fifths, you can teach a violin or fiddle student
new keys but the actual new fingerings will come in easy doses, one string at a time.

So mastering these mental tricks gives a violinist or fiddler an edge in learning new keys and then transposing between them.

This advantage is HUGE when it comes to melody lines.
On fiddle, you can't normally play 3 strings at a time, so you aren't worrying about chords and their inversions,
just double stops.

This rationality extends to the rest of the viol family- a viola is in effect, fingering-wise, a violin with the high string taken off, and a low C added. A cello is tuned an octave lower than a viola, so it's also C-G-D-A.
This means a violin player can learn to play viola fairly easily with a little mental transposing, or vice versa.
They may or may not play WELL on that instrument due to the intonation difference, but the mental jump isn't that big.
Tenor banjo is tuned in 5ths like a viola in standard tuning, or an octave below violin in Irish tuning.
Tenor banjo was devised so that people with experience on violin, viola, or cello could hop on the 19th century banjo craze without having to totally reprogram their brains!

Guitar, lute, 5 string banjo, plectrum banjo and ukelele are tuned like they are to make certain chord inversions easier.
There is a certain sweetness to having the root note, the 3rd and the 5th all line up in a chord in their order in the scale, and that's easily done on instruments tuned mostly in fourths and an occasional third.
That's probably one reason why these instruments are often used as solo accompaniment for songs, and arpeggios sound very nice on them.
The occasional deviance from tuning in fourths to tuning the strings in a third (the jump between the G string and the B string on guitar) or a 2nd on 5-string and plectrum banjo (2nd and 1st strings in standard "G" tuning) is mostly done to make fingerings easier. When playing a chord instrument, you can easily end up with all four fingers on the fingerboard at once, so if the fingers are too stretched or jammed together it causes problems.
But making things easier on the fingers makes it harder on the mind, that is, less "rational".

String bass is tuned in fourths, like the bottom four strings of a guitar.
Because it's always an interval of a fourth, it's "rational", since it's consistent with itself.

jmarshall58 - Posted - 03/11/2010:  18:40:12

What has not been brought up is new standard tuning for guitar. I presently have one acoustic and one electric tuned in this way. It requires different string gauges than normal but is quite worthwhile. You end up with C G DA E B . Careful, the high b is very breakable.
This tuning gives you the equivalent of a mando-cello on the lower four strings, and an octave mandolin on the inner four. The high string is for fun.