latestarter - Posted - 03/10/2010:  08:37:01

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Hi All

I am 46 years old and last Xmas Santa brought me my first fiddle. I was very pleased with the progress. (as I could already read a little music) Kicking out a few tunes and even being able to recognize some of them, until I got greedy and wanted more.
As my playing improved I became evermore critical of myself and wanted rid of the intermittent whistling noises. I convinced myself that the problem lay in the budget strings fitted (fiddle is a Stentor student which I believe is of Chinese origin) or the
cheap rosin supplied. So two weeks ago I fitted a new set of Thomatik Dominant strings using dominant rosin and have been very disappointed with the results. The sound is very quiet and dry sounding. It also produces a sort of rustling sound from the bow. I have tested the tuning with a Korg tuner and it says they are spot on but when I'm playing every now and then it sounds flatter than what was being produced on the steel strings.

Is this caused by poor technique, badly fitting strings or something else?

Any help would be greatly appreciated

Cheers George

woodwiz - Posted - 03/10/2010:  08:41:47

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Are you by chance an octave low? A should be 440 hz.

Did you change your strings all together? If so, is the bridge in the right place, centered between the inside nicks on the F holes and centered on the fingerboard? Bridge feet dead flat on the top?

Is the sound post still standing?

latestarter - Posted - 03/10/2010:  08:55:31

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Hi Woodwiz

Strings tuned to 440hz

Changed one string at time but on the same day.

Sound post still standing and bridge in the right place.

At a guess volume is about half of what I was getting before.

Only chrome E string seems close to what I was getting before

Cheers George

echord - Posted - 03/10/2010:  09:11:22

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I think perlon strings are naturally quieter and more mellow than steel strings. Violinists like them for that reason, but fiddlers generally prefer steel. I've not used Dominants, but I've had to trash can the two sets of perlon strings I bought on-line. They didn't work on any of my 6 fiddles.

Here's a site that sells pretty good chromecore steel strings at a good price -- much better than the comparably priced Chinese strings. They've worked well for me, anyway, and are as good or better than a lot of higher priced strings.

cgi.ebay.com/Old-Violin-Shop-P...18cdfe17b

The whistling sound you were getting may have been due more to your bowing and/or bow quality than the strings, I'm thinking. I'd give the Dominants a few more days to see if they improve before I scraped them, but it you do, I highly recommend the above steel strings.

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Edited by - echord on 03/10/2010 09:21:24

rastewart - Posted - 03/10/2010:  09:26:52

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I wonder if the rosin could have anything to do with it? Either not grabby enough or somehow not working well with the other rosin (assuming there was some of that left on the bow)?

I'm just speculating, since I've never used or even seen Dominant rosin. I used Dominant strings for years, though--they were indeed quieter than the Helicores I have on my fiddle now, but not so drastically quiet that I would have described their sound as you have.

~Rich

mswlogo - Posted - 03/10/2010:  09:49:58

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quote:

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Originally posted by latestarter

Hi Woodwiz

Strings tuned to 440hz

Changed one string at time but on the same day.

Sound post still standing and bridge in the right place.

At a guess volume is about half of what I was getting before.

Only chrome E string seems close to what I was getting before

Cheers George

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Give them a little time to settle in. I just got a new fiddle and any time I release tension on the strings the fiddle seems to go to sleep and takes a day to come back. Keep playing and tuning for a few days it may come around. If it does not I'd have someone look at. Those strings are far from "quiet". You may be used to an overly bright string too which can slow your learning (IMHO). I thought I liked a bright loud instrument but I'm learning that isn't always so good.

ajisai - Posted - 03/10/2010:  09:58:54

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Woodwiz is the expert, but I'll give you my two cents. I have Dominants on my fiddle (first time) and it took about a week before I liked them. I'd say they're somewhat mellow, but the fiddle is still pretty loud with them on. I get a weak, rubbery sound if I have too much rosin and I like the grab that Hill Dark gives me with them, but that's just personal preference.

woodwiz - Posted - 03/10/2010:  10:15:51

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It's not the strings. Dominants are loud enough to be heard over a symphony orchestra, on a good violin. They do indeed sound pretty edgy and metallic for a few days.

Chinese strings are generally atrociously loud and bright.. If you are used to them, Dominants could just sound dull in comparison.

Might want to compare your instrument with others that are judged to sound good before you get too concerned.

latestarter - Posted - 03/10/2010:  10:16:02

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The sound produced certainly isn't mellow

it's quite dry and scratchy with a sort of rustle

coming from the bow hairs. I have noticed that the bow

is slighly warped. Not much may be about 2 or 3 mm

( 120") over its lenght . Is this normal or could some of the hairs

be tighter than others. I have kept fiddle (inside case) in spare bedroom with

no heating on to try and avoid distortion. Is this correct ?

As for the rosins , The Chinese rosin seemed to produce a lot of powder

the dominant rosin much less so. But just in case I am not using it properly

how often should I be using it and how much at a time? I think I may have been

overdoing it lately to see if it will up the volume.

woodwiz - Posted - 03/10/2010:  10:22:02

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quote:

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Originally posted by latestarter

The sound produced certainly isn't mellow

it's quite dry and scratchy with a sort of rustle

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Could be way too much rosin. Is there buildup on the strings?

Once the bow is rosined up, you only need to rosin every several hours. I play a lot, and give a couple of swipes of rosin a couple of times a week. Try cleaning your strings with a piece of cork, and wipe your bow hair down with a towel or washcloth. See how that sounds.

Do you have a teacher or a friend who plays well? Always good to rule out operator error.

Dick Hauser - Posted - 03/10/2010:  10:44:57

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If I were you, I would go to a violin shop and have someone check the fiddle and bow to make sure nothing is wrong. A good fiddle is hard to play. Trying to play a faulty instrument/bow would be very discouraging. Perhaps a lesson where someone could offer constructive criticism on your playing technique and suggestions which would help you start correcting major playing problems.

DO NOT, DO NOT, DO NOT practice or play using bad technique. It only reinforces your tendency to do this. Time will not correct problems by itself. Correcting problems usually involves changing something in your playing technique. Constructive criticism and feedback is necessary.

1. First, have someone make sure you are holding the instrument and bow correctly.

2. Learn how to bow correctly. The best bowing instruction I have ever seen is the Gordon Stobbe DVD "12 Things Your Right Hand Should Know". I wasted a lot of money on instruction which was supposed to cure bowing problems. That $40 (U.S.)
did the job. Just browse "Gordon Stobbe" and his website will come up. If you do get the DVD, you have to practice his exercises on a daily basis, and watch the DVD a couple of times a week. For a while, I did one of his exercises once before I played anything. Improvement is a gradual thing and it makes me enjoy the improvement in tone and ease/effectiveness of my bowing.

3. Part of your daily playing regimen should include exercises where you practice scales and arpeggios. When practicing (NOTE. I said practicing - not playing tunes) be aware of what you are doing and make sure you are doing things correctly. Don't turn your brain off and just go through the motions. By the way, I think scale/arpeggion practice is more effective when you play along with a recording of a very good player doing your exercises. You strive to match the tone of the recording. This does an excellent job of training your ear. Software that lets you control the speed of a recording is very useful. I use "The Amazing Slow Downer", but I think there is free shareware which will let you do this.

jbquicky - Posted - 03/10/2010:  10:52:40

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Late starter, I hope you didn't throw your old strings away when you changed over. If you still have them, change them back. See how it reacts then, That will settle the question of string problems for you.

When you change strings, change the outermost two first then the innermost two. This will keep your bridge in place, and also your sound post from falling.

Sound can change a lot from little variances such as ambient temperature and humidity and even location, I enjoy playing outdoors because of the reverberation effect. Big difference in sound from the four walls of my home to the river or park. An acustic fiddle is a lot of instrument to be playing in a small room.

Recently, I made a new bridge for one of my fiddles, The very small adjustments I made on the new one made a big difference in the sound, much more mellow. In fact, I now prefer it over my other fiddles now.

So bear in mind there are other things to consider when having this problem. Just keep plugging away at it.

latestarter - Posted - 03/10/2010:  10:56:44

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Hi Woodwiz

Just done that . You were right operator error.

Strings are still definitely quieter but there is a great improvement

both in volume and tone.

Many many thanks for the help

Cheers George

ps at the moment you guys are the only people I know who play

latestarter - Posted - 03/10/2010:  11:11:44

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Thanks guys for all your prompt help and advice

It is much appreciated

Cheers George

woodwiz - Posted - 03/10/2010:  11:40:20

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quote:

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Originally posted by latestarter


Many many thanks for the help

Cheers George

ps at the moment you guys are the only people I know who play

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You're welcome, of course. It's kind of a guessing game.

There are a couple of hundred UK fiddlers on this forum, and more on FiddleForum. If you posted looking for fiddlers near your town, you might make some interesting contacts.

As a very hard-headed, independent sort, I heartily recommend finding a teacher. I tried both ways. Did OK on my own, much better with the right teacher. There are even teachers who teach on line.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/10/2010:  12:08:46

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Frankly,
I think it's the Dominant strings!!!
That dry sound is EXACTLY what I hate about them!!!
I have NEVER tried an instrument with them installed and enjoyed playing it- except for maybe the E string.
I mostly use steel core strings.
I thought I hated synthetic strings altogether,
but I recently bought a fiddle with D'Addario Pro Artes, and while I have to be way more gentle with them
than with steel core strings, they DON'T have that dry sound.

So I totally DO NOT see why Dominants are the most common synthetic string on the market.
Maybe it's tradition, because they were the first.
Or maybe with a really top level violin the sound is so full that you need a bit of dryness to give it a bit of bite.
There are a number of things connected to violins where just because something is used by pro violinist does NOT
mean it's good for student violinists- that includes rosin, bridge hardness, and bow responsiveness, and it would
not surprise me if it includes strings too.

In your case, though, I'd go back to steel strings, but try
A. D'Addario Preludes- probably heavy gauge, if you can find them
B. D'Addario Helicores- likewise heavy gauge. (buy a spare A and keep your fingernails trimmed- they wear out quickly)
C. Thomastik Precision Lights (hard to find, but mellow and responsive for a steel-on-steel-core string)

If you want to continue with synthetics, I'd try
D'Addario Zyex- this is hearsay, but I do hear that these synthetic strings do do quite well at making cheap fiddles sound good.
And I'm liking the D'Addario Pro Artes on my Eastman VL100.

Which Stentor Student is it?
There is the Student I and there's the Student II. (Roman numerals- I think the Stentor
was a leather-lunged loudmouth that bellowed out the centurion's orders to the rest of the Roman army unit)
I had the Student I about 5 years back when I restarted fiddling.
About all you could say for it was that it was loud, it was sturdy, and it was cheap.
It also badly needed some setup work- the nut and bridge were way too high.
The Stentor Student II sounded a lot nicer- I hope that's what you have.
Because if you have the Student I, that could be PART of the problem.

I just caught on that you are in the UK.
I hope you can get D'Addario strings over there.
If not, the Thomastik Precision Lights (also called "weich"- AVOID mediums AKA "mittel"
should be easier to find than here in the States.

You might try Prims (Swedish) , but Prims tend to be bright, and my guess is that on the Student I they'd be a disaster.
But they might work on the Student II.

There is a company in the UK that sells Gliga Romanian fiddles.
I think it's called Elida Trading.
Gligas have a pretty good reputation among fiddlers and beginning violin students.

Re the rustling sound from the bow-
do you have a carbon fiber bow???
They are known for having a hissy sound in some situations.
I find it shows up more on the fiddle with synthetic strings,
and more when the bow hair is too loose.
I tighten to where the bow tensioning screw just starts to feel tight,
and the carbon fiber bow seems less hissy there.

Neither fiberglass nor wood bows seem to have as much of a problem with a hissy sound.

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Edited by - fiddlepogo on 03/10/2010 12:13:24

woodwiz - Posted - 03/10/2010:  13:12:56

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Dominant strings are the standard against which all other synthetic strings are judged. The times I saw Perlman play, he was playing Dominants, although I understand he plays Vision now. If you listen to classical music at all, you've probably heard Dominants.

They make a beautiful sound when played well, even on less than wonderful violin. Almost all teachers and schools in our area demand Dominant or Zyex on student instruments.

Good violins have a wide range of tonal color and huge dynamic range, and no good violinist would give up one iota of it. A dry sounding string wouldn't even get a try.

I would hazard a guess that your problem with Dominants might be similar to George's -- too much rosin? Same symptoms. Perhaps same cure?

If something works fine for almost everyone else but not for you, could it possibly just be something you are doing? You are entirely welcome to play any way you want to, but should you really attribute the results to equipment that works fine for almost everyone else? I can tell you from substantial experience that good players sound good on anything from a $300 entry level fiddle to a Guarneri. Good technique works on (almost) anything. I have a recording of Pat Ireland fiddling on a Knilling Bucharest. I might as well list it in the classifieds and post it soon. It will illustrate the point..

Zyex sound and play like a warm Dominant, maybe a little higher tension. We sell a lot of them, and I play on them a lot, although my preference is Helicore. I'm not real particular; I'll play most anything and still sound much the same. Synthetic strings are not my first preference for fiddling, but they are fine.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/10/2010:  14:27:15

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Well, it's quite possible it's something to do with my style.
As I've said before, it's rather aggressive, although I do lighten up for synthetic strings.
Or maybe it's my hearing.
I'm WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY picky.
I'm an absolute tone freak on electric guitar pickups.
Very small differences in the amount of treble will spoil my enjoyment of an electric guitar.
Most of the stock Stratocasters are too trebly for me, if I bought them, I'd have to tweak them.
And I'm finding I'm the same way with fiddles.
The irony is that I LIKE treble- I like Stratocaster single coil electrics and fairly bright fiddles, but there are certain frequencies
of treble that sound nice and crisp to me, and certain others that are "fingernails-on-blackboard".

The most recent Dominants are brand new ones on an STV-600 Scott Cao.
The bow is a shop bow that I primed with rosin myself to being barely playable,
and I don't rosin it every time I try the fiddle.
So I don't think it's got too much rosin.
The bow COULD also be a factor- it's a carbon-fiber,
and while it's agile and all, allows me to play the fiddle easily
and control my attack pretty well, it may be a bit too hissy for that violin and/or string.
It's also worst on the A string.
But whatever it is, the Pro Arte's on the Eastman VL100 don't do it.
Perhaps the A string on the Pro Artes is a little less sensitive.
I DO lighten up my style considerably when playing synthetics,
but maybe there's a limit to what I can effectively do.
And Pro Artes are on the right side of that limit.

You know, it COULD be that as mostly a steel string fiddler, I DON'T play close enough
to the bridge for most synthetic strings.
When I tried an $18,000 Harrison, Mr. Harrison kept saying "Play closer to the bridge!"
And his violins have Dominants, and I could tell I tended to play them too hard for that far away from the bridge.
Well, on steel string playing closer to the fingerboard that same place gives me good tone.
So it's a hard habit to break.

I really need to break down and actually BUY a set of Zyex...
from everything I've heard, including what you just said- "warm Dominant"
makes me think I'd like them as well, maybe even better than the Pro Artes.

Which makes me think I should try Helicores too.
Because so far, I haven't tried a single set of D'Addario strings where the sound
wasn't at least acceptable.
Aside from Dominants, the only other brand of strings I've never had a good experience
with is Super-Sensitives steel strings- both types. They never sound right to me.
(Well, okay- there is one other- BLACK DIAMONDS!!!)

And, because Dominants are such a common synthetic, and Super-Sensitives such a common steel string,
those unpleasant experiences are fairly frequent. And in both cases, yes I admit, to be that popular, other people MUST like them.

woodwiz - Posted - 03/10/2010:  14:58:33

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Played some Super Sensitives a while back - first time in forever. They've gotten better. Gonna have to put a set on a decent fiddle and give them a workout.

Helicores are popular and not too expensive - worth a try.

jbquicky - Posted - 03/10/2010:  16:00:10

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I've been using Thomastik Infeld Red since day one. I feel very lucky after hearing all these horror stories out there about fiddles sounding scratchy, poor tone, etc. I feel no need to change anything. However for the past year or so, I've been experimenting with creating my bridges from blanks. It's exciting what a difference in sound one can make.

moonfiddler - Posted - 03/10/2010:  16:40:24

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jb, care to share how you are creating your own bridges? Oldtimer posted a nice tutorial and I`m wondering if your method is similar.

jbquicky - Posted - 03/10/2010:  17:20:49

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I cannot remember old timers post, but this is where I got the idea to experiment around a bit.
penguinlovers.net/bridge_adj.html It help to have a dremmel tool also. although some of the work needs be done with elbo grease. If you can find that particular post again. link me. Give it a try and let me know how you do.

latestarter - Posted - 03/11/2010:  04:24:52

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Hi Fiddlepogo
My fiddle was a gift so don't know what version it is. Label inside says The Stentor Student ST and the bridge is 33mm high. Even if I had the money (which I don't) I would be reluctant to change it so quickly as I feel it would be slightly disrespectful. However there is something you said that has made a big big improvement. Playing closer to the bridge.
If I tried to play that distance away fro the bridge with the chinese strings they would either whistle or just sound very tinney. Both the volume and tone has improved. Thanks for that .There is still a slight rustle in the bow sound but it is at a much more acceptable level. I think to bottom that one out I will need to show it to an expert to find out where the problem lies. I am almost sure they will say the fiddle is better at being a fiddle than I am at being a fiddler.
Cheers George