barretone - Posted - 02/07/2010:  12:04:56

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I'm relatively new to the violin world, but it strikes me that there are two very clear markets. There's the general market 1x (ebay, private sales) and then there's the violin shop market 4x+. I've never seen this kind of bifurcation before where identical instruments can have such differing values. Granted, on Ebay, violins often need repair. Violin shop fiddles tend to be in excellent condition, sans cracks. But even so, it's possible to buy a trade fiddle on ebay in excellent condition for $300. That same fiddle in "Johann's Expensive and Snotty Violin Shop" will go for $3500.

Go figure.

RB

forestabri - Posted - 02/07/2010:  12:40:59

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Anything nice on eBay that I've watched goes for a pretty good price. Do a watch for EH Roth violins and check the prices on anything from the 1920's. If they sell, it's $2K+. Anything from Markneukirchen, likewise. Anything for $300.00 is a pig in a poke or an educated gamble at best. Watch out for the guy in Portugal, he sells fakes.

I'm sure you can get lucky, but it's a risk. I've purchased fiddles online and it's ok if there is a trial period. I've been looking on ebay for something I can take apart and mess with, but rarely see anything cheap enough to risk it.

If I buy anything from a store I expect it's going to cost more (usually) than private party. That's true for guitars, banjos, mandolins, anything. The advantage of a purchase from a reputable store is they will set it up right and will be there when you need repairs, etc. As far as expensive, I always look at a store price as the starting price. You can get them to come down if it's been hanging on the wall for awhile. Plus you get to try it out, something I regret not doing a couple of times with my online purchases.

mudbug - Posted - 02/07/2010:  12:47:01

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I don't necessarily think that those two fiddles are the same. But even if they were, Snotty Johann has to stand behind his. And maybe there's other shops who aren't so snotty where the price would be 600.00- 1200.00. Believe me, I'm not condoning Snotty Johann's priceing structure, but if he is so overpriced and not giving good value, he'll have to hold that fiddle for a long time and maybe go out of bussiness. There are folks who like to brag about how much they spent for something, and think that price equates to value. There's also folks who like to brag about how cheap they got something for. Something for everyone.

Percy - Posted - 02/07/2010:  13:11:15

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I can only speak from local experience -- about our local violin shop. They also sell all kinds of band instruments as well. Yes, some of their violins are very highly priced, but they also have $300 to $600 violins that are quite nice... and they don't act "snooty" if you ask to play them. They are also very accommodating about bows. My husband went in there to buy a bow for me a couple of years ago -- telling them he had about $100 to spend. They went through a bunch of bows until they found a $90 brazilwood bow that they thought was really nice. HardyKefes has played it and says it's a very nice bow.

Maybe it's because the work with so many students at all levels -- they don't get an "attitude" about lower-end instruments of any kind. They are very good about steering you towards an instrument that is appropriate for your skill level and genre at a price you can afford. Period. I think they have the attitude that if you become a customer buying lower-end instruments, when you're ready to move up, you'll think of them.

They've been in business for over 50 years. I guess maybe that's why.

giannaviolins - Posted - 02/07/2010:  13:16:59

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Usually when this disparity has been pointed out by a buyer of the less expensive one I note:

1. The less expensive one is really a different model from a line, the bottom end one. "I got a Roth for only . . . " But it's a low end model, and he's comparing it to a high end model.

2. The less expensive one is a fake. More common than one might think. Labels are cheap.

3. The less expensive one isn't in very good shape, and the one being compared to is in mint condition. That will make a large difference, especially with a soundpost crack or the like.

4. The buyer got really lucky on eBay.

5. The shop is selling a new, warrantied item, rather than a used unwarrantied item. Add 20% or more for that aspect.


Note that quite a few private sellers attempting to get me to buy things from them are way over pricing what they have, in part because of the above.

I am too often on the end of a conversation about setting up a bargain fiddle. The buyer of the bargain becomes upset when the repair cost brings the total cost up to equal to or greater than simply getting one in good shape in the first place.

Perhaps you could provide some examples for us to mull over.

woodwiz - Posted - 02/07/2010:  14:03:17

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Those old trade violins sold originally for $2 to $200, roughly a 100 - to -1 range. Plus, a lot of those Ebay violins need expensive repairs, or at least a decent setup to be useful, which also costs money. Some of them are just junk.

The $200 trade violins (1920's Roth, early Heberlein) now sell in shops for around $6,000 - a thirty-fold increase. The two-dollar fiddles bring less than $100, if they sell at all, and most shops can't afford to carry them..

In a way, you are comparing a '71 Pinto with a '99 Mercedes CLK500. After all, they're both cars.

I agree with Steve's remarks, above, and would love to see some concrete examples.

brian bishop - Posted - 02/07/2010:  14:44:35

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barretone, Did you have a bad experience with a shop that led you to this conclusion? If so I'm sorry to hear it but I think if you dig a little bit more below the surface you may find that most places try hard to be as fair and in tune with the market place as they can within the context of running a business and paying the bills, etc.

There will always be exceptions, but from what I have seen and heard talking with many other dealers in both the violin and fiddle world, most shops have some sort of fairly understandable relationship with what they pay for an instrument and what they sell it for.

RobBob - Posted - 02/08/2010:  06:10:13

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Since fiddles are hardly branded like other instruments, it is hard to know if you are comparing apples and oranges or what. There is a guy who has a shop in his home and sells better sounding and looking fiddles than the local violin shops or certain price points. He tends not to have too many of the higher end things. But his prices for instruments, accessories and repairs are right for the fiddlers and beginning violin folks. There are several other shops that charge more all around. Mostly this part-time guy beats their deals for fiddlers.

barretone - Posted - 02/08/2010:  08:18:03

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OK. I just bought a JTL El Maestro in superb condition on eBay for $700. (The buyer was kind enough to offer me a 24-hour right of refusal.) Here's an auction listing for the same instrument at $1300
liveauctioneers.com/item/5190140

I currently can't find a shop version, but I have little doubt this fiddle would go for $2-3,000.

I do feel I was lucky and got a good deal, but I don't think this price scheme is unusual, particularly given a known brand name.

Randy

quote:

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Originally posted by woodwiz

Those old trade violins sold originally for $2 to $200, roughly a 100 - to -1 range. Plus, a lot of those Ebay violins need expensive repairs, or at least a decent setup to be useful, which also costs money. Some of them are just junk.

The $200 trade violins (1920's Roth, early Heberlein) now sell in shops for around $6,000 - a thirty-fold increase. The two-dollar fiddles bring less than $100, if they sell at all, and most shops can't afford to carry them..

In a way, you are comparing a '71 Pinto with a '99 Mercedes CLK500. After all, they're both cars.

I agree with Steve's remarks, above, and would love to see some concrete examples.

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giannaviolins - Posted - 02/08/2010:  08:55:06

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That's an excellent and unusual deal. Fully set? Would be advertised perhaps at $2200, would leave the shop at $1500 to $2000. That's what I would anticipate.

It's not terribly uncommon on eBay to see things that look about like this. Those that I've bought have needed work, ideally a lot of work so they're very cheap. Those that people bring in often have damage, are fakes, or whatever as pointed out above.

It's not anything different about the violin market. Except the violin market has more than its share of fakes and condition plays into the price more than some markets.

Cattle auction vs. steaks at Kroger
Auto auction
Any estate sale or auction


Let me ask this; are any markets not like this?

Market 1: Works price. I buy enough to import. I pay freight, insurance, take all the risk from the place of manufacture in occupied Llaugavvilleland.
Market 2: I sell direct to retailers, marking up generally something like 2x or 3x the ex-works price. Covers shipping, overhead, returns, damaged goods, etc and surprisingly little profit.
Market 3: In the alternative, I sell to jobbers (generally distinguished by location), who sell to retailers. Their markup is rarely 2x times the FOB my warehouse cost. Often less in a competitive market.
Market 4: Retail to the "end user." Markups are generally 2x or in some fields 3x the price from wholesaler or jobber. Actual sale price (depending on item and considering how much setup there is, how much competition, and many many other factors dealing with support and so on) is usually 60% to 80% of "list" - list being usually 2x or 2.5x the unloaded wholesale.
Market 5: Private sales - these are all over, from silly low prices to people asking full undiscounted retail for beat up items.
Market 6: Auctions - all over the place, of course, but generally a used wholesale market.

Vintage instruments can be tricky. If you consider online auctions the bargain basement, then all the risks and possible rewards get taken on by the buyer. It's a wholesale or sub wholesale market. One problem is that instruments aren't fungible, especially vintage instruments. Some brands were made in several different shops that weren't equivalent. Some time periods of a shop's production are more valued than others. Some instruments just won't run. Another problem is backup. There is none on an auction sale.

Let's put up two apparently equal instruments. Two Roth violas. My customer has bought a Roth viola with the label ripped out, assured to be from 1938 by the seller, a famous shop with a bit of a reputation problem. She got an incredible deal for about $3800. Years later I look at her Roth viola. It's a 1960s Roth viola, of the low end. It's not worth anywhere near $3800. On eBay the labelless Roth viola would simply be listed as "ER Roth viola - nice condition." If you look at comps from the 1930s you'll bid high. If you look at comps from the 1960s, you'll bid low.

We'll do another vintage. This is a real example, although I won't point out the maker.

Maker X violin purchased at auction for about $1500, with the maker's work going for over $10,000 at the shops. A great deal.

Violin needs doubling of top & back, a couple of new blocks, neck has been cut narrow so it needs a new graft. Also needs top distortions taken out, new fingerboard, bushing, complete new setup, old post patch replacing, some cracks fixing, and extensive varnish setup. It was still a good deal, but there's no way to know ahead of time whether the instrument will really sound. In this instance, it really was a Maker X violin. Normally the violins like this coming in aren't. And the fellow purchasing it had insufficient knowledge to determine authenticity or condition. He just got lucky, although he did whine at the price of restoration.

Now. Look at my numbers above. If you see a shop advertising an XYZ model 12 at a list of $4000. You can probably get that instrument with bargaining for $3000 or less. It probably cost the shop $2000 plus setup and overhead. It likely sells on the used market at $2000. It likely shows up a little beat on eBay at $800, but is usually bid up to $1800. This doesn't seem any different than the used vs. new, or auction vs. retail venue differential in anything.

Also, you're relatively new to the violin world. Those of us who aren't see many many many many many deals. Some are very good for the buyer. These get pointed to, bragged about, hyped. I assure you, the number of disappointed aftermarket buyers who keep quiet about their purchasing error far outweighs the lucky buyers. All too often the lucky buyers are simply wrong about what they got and what it would really have normally sold for. They just don't know it. And unless they ask very precisely, I'm not going to pop the bubble.

woodwiz - Posted - 02/08/2010:  09:18:44

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Steve's post is great, but that's just the start of it. Main point being that most markets work the same way.

You have to make a profit to stay in business, and there aren't too many people getting rich in the fiddle business. Overhead is high for most violin shops, and inventory turns over slowly, but private sellers don't have to pay store rent, employees, etc. Motivations of private sellers vary; local markets vary. Like any business, there are some "ethically challenged" people, but I haven't run into many of them.

As far as the Ebay fiddle goes, it may not be a Pinto, but it's leaning that way. The body looks good, but mechanical tuners knock at least half the value off. Personally, I'd pass it up at any price. Too hard to re-sell, when there are tons of great fiddles in the same price range without them, and too expensive to fix. The other examples have standard pegs.

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Edited by - woodwiz on 02/08/2010 09:34:23

giannaviolins - Posted - 02/08/2010:  09:42:02

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Yup, there's coffee and there's cooffffeeeee . . . . I will pay more for the latter. Often the only difference is in the treatment and handling. But sometimes there are good deals.

Vacuum packed blue mountain blend seems so disappointing compared to just picked, fresh roasted, hand ground, from a beat up tin cup in the blue mountains.

But tastes vary.

barretone - Posted - 02/08/2010:  10:58:21

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Good points on overhead, plus repair and set up costs for shop fiddles. But the differential still seems pretty steep to me. I can't blame anybody for wanting to stay in business, tho. And I agree, shop-sold fiddles tend to be in excellent+ condition.

And Woodwiz: The mechanical tuners are what sold me! Plus, the fiddle actually sounds good.

RB

bowbag - Posted - 02/08/2010:  10:59:58

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You're right barretone the difference between the two markets is huge but like the fellas say above the difference between the two markets is much more then price. A instrument bought from a shop is backed by someones word. They want you to enjoy the instrument and maybe even tell your friends where you got it. If you have a problem with a shop bought instrument in most cases you can bring it back and they'll help you out, at least for a discounted rate. Also, when buying a shop instrument you can try it out first, even compare it to others in the shop. For me a huge huge advantage to buying from a shop is a trade up policy, the shop near me does it. If I buy a fiddle for a grand, at any time I can go back and trade it in putting 100% of that price towards a newer, more expensive fiddle. All of these advantages have a value, not to mention building a rapport with people that actually care about your playing. When you buy from ebay, in most cases, that's it you're stuck with what you get. As soon as you hit purchase button it's a done deal in all aspects. That said my favorite fiddle I have right now is one I bought off the fiddle hangout classifieds for $350.

giannaviolins - Posted - 02/08/2010:  11:07:12

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The difference between the two markets simply isn't huge. It's no more huge than in any other thing.

I can get a __ guitar I used to sell on eBay for say $500. The ex-works price was $376 when I was buying many. The list was about $1300, wholesale around $650, usually retailed around $850, below MAP, but some profit in there for everyone. So eBay is less than half new list.

Vintage stuff doesn't have a "list."

i just don't see this general disparity. I doubt it's there at all on many things. I sell one fellow new instruments, cut him a little bit of a deal, he often sells them for a little more than he (or the buyer) could get them for here. It's still less than most shops charge. It's a little more than some teachers with no overhead charge, but without my setup, maintenance, and continuing support on the instrument end of things. Same thing happens with the vintage instruments I sell. They show up again on the market sometimes at or above what I sold them for.

I just don't see it happening as a routine thing. In the example of the instrument above with mechanical tuners - big hit on value right there. Immaterial that the buyer likes it. One with mechanical tuners would be fixed at some expense in a shop or deeply discounted. Don't take published prices at face value!

bowbag - Posted - 02/08/2010:  11:41:59

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By huge I wasn't speaking in terms of prices alone, the general buying experience. It is different then many other things because of the special nature of instruments. I've never had to bring a camera back to the place I bought it to have it tweaked, I've never brought a pair of pants back to the gap to have them hemmed. There is a level of service that a instrument shop offers that isn't paralleled in many of the other consumer outlets. By buying through a shop you support that consumer/shop relationship and make this world a better place.

barretone - Posted - 02/08/2010:  12:33:33

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Ok, here's another example. I've just purchased a JTL Barnabetti, which is in technically good condition, but lower block needs to be reglued. Luckily I can do that myself. I paid $300 for it. Here's one that sold from fancy private shop in Utah for around $5,000 (look down about five fiddles)

finestringinstruments.com/page...-11.shtml

You can't tell me there isn't a massive differential here! If I repaired the fiddle and put in on eBay, I'd probably get $350 or so for it.

RB

giannaviolins - Posted - 02/08/2010:  13:41:43

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That would be a massive differential. There's no way to tell what they actually sold the instrument for, or if it's really the same as yours. A brief search turns up variations in quality mentioned. What the instrument would bring on eBay isn't particularly relevant. Probably depends on the quality of restoration, the quality of pictures, phase of the moon, and random variations in buying interest.

I would think even $4000 would be high for that type of instrument. Given what $4000 will buy these days!

But an unrestored violin like that would be priced quite differently if it's been gone through. Much of what you're paying for in a better shop is the going through.

Violin - bad lower block. Add simple repair, modest setup, sell on eBay. That gives one value.

Violin - bad lower block. Add pull-apart, graduation cleanup, new blocks where needed, new bar, varnish repair, complete high-end setup. That will give a different value.

They aren't really comparable. Which is what we've been pointing out. Apple 1 does not equal Apple 2.

And this isn't the only market to reflect that.

1969 Camero 1: Runs, a little body rust, high mileage, needs new interior and general going through. All original

1969 Camero 2: Runs well, 28,500 original miles, garage kept, oil kept changed, run occasionally, stored on blocks to keep tires round.

1969 Camero 3: Complete restored car with new, souped up engine, wide tires, fancy interior, lots of rake, and stunning custom paint job.

1969 Camero 4: Like Camero 1, but with the engine & trans not original and an aftermarket paint job. Plenty of bondo. Smokes on startup and has some tranny & dif noise. Looks to have been driven hard.

1969 Camero 5: It's in a barn under a tarp, the trustee wants the dang thing out of there make me an offer.

They're all 1969 Cameros. You keep indicating Camero 1 is the same as 2 and 3 or 4 or 5, and implying the price differential is in some way unusual, or unjustified, or whatever. In vintage items especially, it's not at all the same. Even in modern stuff in the same condition it's not. A 1920s Gibson mando with Loar's sig in it isn't the same as one that doesn't have his sig. A 1957 Les Paul isn't the same as a 1976 Les Paul. Well, it is, but hey, the market doesn't think so. I do miss that Les Paul . . . .

If you see Camero 5 anywhere give me an immediate buzz, that's my type of thing. I'll bring a trailer.

Now I have known people in shops to ask very high prices and hope for a sucker. But that's pretty rare. Generally shops will price at a good value.

The Barnabetti needing work is the kind of thing I'd take in, do a full restoration on, and tag at $1500 to $2500 depending on how it turned out and what my evaluation of the market turned up. That's a fair price, including the graduation cleanup, bar, setup, often a new board, etc. In the big Chicago shops it would be higher. I doubt you'd find one restored fully for any less. You can probably find some that claim to be.

brian bishop - Posted - 02/08/2010:  14:55:45

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as far as the Barnabetti goes JTL had several different models sold under this name with the best being over twice the price of the least expensive. Which one is yours, which one does the dealer have, how much did he pay and how much work did he put into it?

A point worth considering is that if you take a few isolated cases from ebay, or anywhere else, you can prove just about anything. I see violins sell on ebay that occasionally go for retail or above if enough people get in on the bidding or the seller has done a great job of hyping it.
That does not mean that ebay is the place to get the most $$$ when selling violins as it is not what happens most of the time. I have watched most of the major violin auction house sales for a number of years as well as ebay and bought a fair number of instruments over the years this way. A very few I got lucky and made out really well on and a very few I ended up loosing money. The majority ended up netting about what you might get if you were to buy new merchandise in almost any other field for resale.

As Voo Doo and woodwiz have pointed out, market economics will tend to balance things out if you take some sort of average from a larger number of examples.

mudbug - Posted - 02/08/2010:  16:36:17

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quote:

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Originally posted by barretone

Ok, here's another example. I've just purchased a JTL Barnabetti, which is in technically good condition, but lower block needs to be reglued. Luckily I can do that myself. I paid $300 for it. Here's one that sold from fancy private shop in Utah for around $5,000 (look down about five fiddles)

finestringinstruments.com/page...-11.shtml

You can't tell me there isn't a massive differential here! If I repaired the fiddle and put in on eBay, I'd probably get $350 or so for it.

RB

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Why does it bother you what someone else charges for an instrument that you have no intention of buying? If you're happy finding "deals" on E-Bay and believing that they are worth more, find joy in that. Don't try to turn a positive into a negative. Be Happy.

brian bishop - Posted - 02/08/2010:  17:25:05

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[/quote]

Why does it bother you what someone else charges for an instrument that you have no intention of buying? If you're happy finding "deals" on E-Bay and believing that they are worth more, find joy in that. Don't try to turn a positive into a negative. Be Happy.
[/quote]

thanks for your take on this mudbug, it's refreshing and for me a great reminder of what is perhaps the most important issue involved.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 02/08/2010:  20:56:17

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quote:

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Originally posted by barretone

I'm relatively new to the violin world, but it strikes me that there are two very clear markets. There's the general market 1x (ebay, private sales) and then there's the violin shop market 4x+. I've never seen this kind of bifurcation before where identical instruments can have such differing values. Granted, on Ebay, violins often need repair. Violin shop fiddles tend to be in excellent condition, sans cracks. But even so, it's possible to buy a trade fiddle on ebay in excellent condition for $300. That same fiddle in "Johann's Expensive and Snotty Violin Shop" will go for $3500.

Go figure.
RB

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I don't think it's so strange. There are various kinds of stores that cater to people with lots of money and refined tastes. Jewelry stores, clothing stores, luxury car dealers and yes, violin shops can cater to a very refined clientele, and the prices will show it...and the prices will help keep riff-raff like me OUT... and that's part of what a well-heeled clientele is <paying for>!!!

Hand made violins cost big bucks, and of course they're going to cater to their market.
eBay, music stores that focus on students and lessons and sell other instruments, big music retailers, etcetera are not, but each one may have a different profit margin, overhead, etc.

You do have different attitudes in the nice violin shops.
When I was learning Old Time fiddle in the '70s, there was one shop I went to to buy my bows and get them rehaired, and the German luthier treated me like something the cat drug in!!!
Another shop in the same city treated me with respect- I was so surprised I commented on it, and they said
"We look at it this way- it's promoting interest in the instrument!" Wise people!

Steve and Michael, I don't see Gianna or Kansas City as being the former kind- more of the latter enlightened kind. But the snooty places DO exist, where a fiddler will get the "bum's rush".
They might sell you a set of strings, but you'll pay more, and they don't really want you to hang around and chat, and scare off the parents of some child prodigy ready to upgrade to a pro violin.
I don't LIKE being treated that way, but seen from a strictly dollars and cents point-of-view, I can kind of understand it- they stand to make about $100 max off of me, $200 if they're lucky, and thousands of dollars off of the prodigy's parents!

giannaviolins - Posted - 02/09/2010:  03:32:40

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What's really funny is how I get treated when I indicate I'm curious about a specific high dollar (HIGH) instrument the ritzy shop has because I like making instruments. I've generally been ushered back given a tour, examined the instrument I know about and shown other quite interesting things. Not an excessive amount of time taken, just shown the things I should see. Maybe I'll be given the opportunity to buy broken things they don't need, or offered things that don't fit their market wholesale. All that has happened.

Chuck Naill - Posted - 02/09/2010:  04:37:30

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There are as many markets as there are demographic differences in customers. Some people have money and some do not. If you have money and spend a lot, you think you have something of value, which is not necessarily true, but if you are content, it's true, until you learn more.

I am thinking about these demographics:
1. Parents of student customers
2. Wealthy adult student customers
3. Poor student customers
4. Wealthy professional customers
5. Poor professional customer
6. Can't play, just collecting customers
7. The informed customer

giannaviolins - Posted - 02/09/2010:  05:32:19

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They'll be a good deal of crossover. Parents of students are often players themselves. Collectors often play, but don't care as much about playing as they do the instrument. Informed and misinformed cross all your categories.

You left out the stalkers and other interesting demographics. Always beware of any potential customer whose email starts "I am not a stalker, but . . . ."

Chuck Naill - Posted - 02/09/2010:  07:39:55

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quote:

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Originally posted by voodoo

They'll be a good deal of crossover. Parents of students are often players themselves. Collectors often play, but don't care as much about playing as they do the instrument. Informed and misinformed cross all your categories.

You left out the stalkers and other interesting demographics. Always beware of any potential customer whose email starts "I am not a stalker, but . . . ."

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Stalkers, that's funny.

Hopefully a parent who plays would fall under my informed demographic. Collectors are interesting. They know a lot about what someone has told them, very market attentive, and many times are the cause of inflated vintage prices especially retired boomers.

giannaviolins - Posted - 02/09/2010:  07:58:14

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Some collectors - all the ones I've met - have excellent eyss for fine instruments, or interesting instruments. Usually they're specializing and can spot what they like a mile off.

I'll distinguish collectors from accumulators, who have no plan and just gather stuff.

Chuck Naill - Posted - 02/09/2010:  08:27:10

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quote:

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Originally posted by voodoo

Some collectors - all the ones I've met - have excellent eyss for fine instruments, or interesting instruments. Usually they're specializing and can spot what they like a mile off.

I'll distinguish collectors from accumulators, who have no plan and just gather stuff.

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Distinctions noted.

chuck

barretone - Posted - 02/09/2010:  08:30:01

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OK. After reading all these replies here's my new plan:

1.Start Randy's Snotty Violin Shop and charge excessive rates for older European factory violins.
2. I will be extra rude to fiddler riff raff
3. I will make tens of dollars

RB

Chuck Naill - Posted - 02/09/2010:  09:35:00

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quote:

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Originally posted by barretone

OK. After reading all these replies here's my new plan:

1.Start Randy's Snotty Violin Shop and charge excessive rates for older European factory violins.
2. I will be extra rude to fiddler riff raff
3. I will make tens of dollars

RB

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Please let us know how your business model works.

giannaviolins - Posted - 02/09/2010:  13:00:43

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I don't actually see better shops selling older European factory violins at excessive prices. The Roths and so on, yes. I don't usually see any of the low end stuff at the better shops. Again, there are the points made above. I usually ignore the labels. Not only were they originally put in many different fiddles, they're easily removed and put in other instruments.

I scanned B&F, Reuning, and Ifshin. Only two instruments I wondered about the pricing of, an EHRoth and a GA Ficker. The rest seemed quite reasonably placed.

Maybe you're not looking at well known shops.

Chuck Naill - Posted - 02/09/2010:  14:03:35

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quote:

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Originally posted by voodoo

I don't actually see better shops selling older European factory violins at excessive prices. The Roths and so on, yes. I don't usually see any of the low end stuff at the better shops. Again, there are the points made above. I usually ignore the labels. Not only were they originally put in many different fiddles, they're easily removed and put in other instruments.

I scanned B&F, Reuning, and Ifshin. Only two instruments I wondered about the pricing of, an EHRoth and a GA Ficker. The rest seemed quite reasonably placed.

Maybe you're not looking at well known shops.

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Reuning is big on the Eastman VL100. The Ifshin site was fun.

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 02/09/2010:  17:04:40

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There are many violin shops in the Los Angeles area. I guess I've been to about half of them. Some of them do look down their noses at fiddlers, and others tolerate us gamely or seem to be singularly over-priced, but I've found a couple that are both friendly and fairly-priced.

I bought both my bow and my fiddle at Studiio City Music/Benning Violins. I marched in there several times during my shopping travels and it was probably only once that they didn't patiently hand me instruments and let me screech until my fingers fell off. In any case, I'm thrilled with my purchases there; and the place's patriarch Hans Benning set up my fiddle to a t. Tailpiece with fine-tuners? No problem. A wider nut? No problem. Flattened bridge? No problem. I also firmly believe I got excellent value for my money.

The other place that got me smiling was the Gliga outlet in Pasadena. Manned by a squad of twenty-somethings, including, I think, one of Gliga's sons. Mellow, friendly and ready to let you handle the merchandise. Some pretty good fiddles, too.

The moral of my story? Just because a store caters to the carriage trade doesn't mean they're sniveling, supercilious, treacherous pick-pocketers.

giannaviolins - Posted - 02/09/2010:  18:25:07

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That a shop appears snooty doesn't necessarily mean that's a differential put on for fiddlers. Some shops and individuals are quite formal to everyone. People who are extremely busy may appear distant. Possibly a combination of perception and real behavior. Customers don't always behave well, and sometimes fail to realize they're not fitting in well.

But we're really focusing on price differential. Which still doesn't seem unreasonable among the better known shops. There are outliers, of course.

amwildman - Posted - 02/09/2010:  19:55:15

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There's always the option of making your own instruments.

giannaviolins - Posted - 02/10/2010:  02:05:30

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I don't see how that's relevant to the subject at hand - the suggestion that the differential in price between informal aftermarket prices and formal shop prices is different in the violin world as compared to other markets.

Chuck Naill - Posted - 02/10/2010:  02:34:54

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quote:

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Originally posted by amwildman

There's always the option of making your own instruments.

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Aaron,

Not a bad suggestion, especially for the fiddler. Since the traditional music many of us play do not require playing much around the edges or past the first position, a good sound handmade fiddler with the right set up is an affordable option.

Buying from these builders also provides an immediate and lasting relationship to develop. I have found most of the private builders for any musical instrument inviting.

giannaviolins - Posted - 02/10/2010:  04:50:08

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Check out the balsa violins. Cigar box fiddles don't sound bad at all when the joints are done well.

Still not on topic.

mudbug - Posted - 02/10/2010:  14:26:11

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I for one would rather go to a dedicated string shop, talk with knowledgeable salespeople and try a multitude of instruments until I find the one that I love and can afford. If this costs me more than one on E-bay, which I can't try without spending time and shipping cost, and can't A/B different fiddles, so be it. That's money well spent in my book!

amwildman - Posted - 02/11/2010:  20:40:56

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Steve, if you reread the original post(along with his other posts), it's clear that barretone is not pleased at all with retail violin shops. I don't see how pointing out another option is off-topic at all, even if it was a little tongue-in-cheek.

Just because my topic wasn't perfectly in-line with your mindset, agenda, or whatever you want to call it doesn't mean it's off-topic from the rest of the thread. Threads evolve, flow, change. Human interaction and all that. Sorry, I'm not a robot. Not like i was talking about bumblebees or something. :)

coelhoe - Posted - 02/12/2010:  08:01:14

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There is probably a very interesting study in economics buried in this discussion. Because of economic and class differences in America, certain objects can move between class levels and be valued quite differently at each level. Objects which are functional in traditional communities, can become decorative in middle class homes and then become display objects d'art in upper class ones. This has happened with quilts, homemade chairs, and a variety of other objects.

But for us it is particularly interesting when musical instruments are involved, especially violins. Bear with me, this takes awhile to explain.

For many reasons, the states which made up the Old Northwest (Michigan, Wisconsin, Indiana. Ohio, Illinois) early on developed strong educational systems, often founding universities years before statehood. Part of this educational plan in all of these areas was an emphasis on music education. You can still see this in the dynamic secondary band and orchestra programs in these states. But there were strong elements of community music as well, local brass bands, chamber groups and so forth. Much of this came to fruition just as the massive import of instruments from the newly invented Germany was beginning (post 1871). Fast-forward a century and by the early 1970's there were large amounts of European made string instruments languishing in attics and basements throughout these areas. In the larger communities, especially the university-based communities (Madison, Bloomington, Champaign-Urbana, Columbus, Athens, Lansing, etc.) there developed three parallel markets for violins, markets which were hardly aware of each other: the traditional community musicians, middle class families looking for school instruments, and university students and faculty looking for performance instruments.

The film "Breaking Away," from three decades ago shows very clearly the almost unbreakable cultural barriers between university students and the local townspeople, in this case in Bloomington, Indiana. Local musicians favored one small in-home music shop for repairs and strings, secondary student families used the large commercial music stores and the university community used the two world-class luthiers (one imported by the university music school from Europe) with up-scale shops in town.

You could go to small bluegrass and fiddle festivals in southern Indiana and Ohio and buy all of the violins you could carry for $35-$50 each, including case and bow, from the trunkloads of such instruments for sale, all of them better quality European instruments imported before WW1. I would often buy four or five and take them back home to Bloomington, set them up, and sell them to the university student community at 5x my investment. One irony of this situation was that many of my customers were students who were just getting into old-time music but who could not bring themselves to actually go out and spend time with traditional musicians or dancers in the area.

Once in a while a real gem would turn up, and would eventually migrate up to the university music school at increasing cost, and in a couple of cases an instrument from a student in financial distress would migrate in the other direction. The traditional musicians would not pay more than $200 for a fiddle in thsoe days. That was the ceiling. The middle class families would spend up to $2000 for a Scherl and Roth outfit, and the top university players were of course paying often more than ten times that latter figure. The middle class folks could have bought far superior instruments for 1/10 the price but they didn't know that market was even in existence, and same is true for the music school people.

It seems to me that Ebay must have changed all this for both the community musicians and somewhat for the middle class, though this latter group seems to me still bound to the larger music stores. Whenever I get back to southern Indiana I find that among the fiddlers there are still lots of fine instruments around, and there is still not much interaction between the university "old-time" players and all of the musicians who still play "out in the county." But that's another story.

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Edited by - coelhoe on 02/12/2010 08:02:31

Chuck Naill - Posted - 02/12/2010:  08:46:02

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I always enjoy reading you posts, Dennis.

Just addressing the preference for big stores by the middle class, perhaps those establishments are a little less threatening. a Guitar Center vs a small home owned shop being a good example. The small shop and the luthiers can be intimidating. At times they are not used to the questions a parent or the inexperienced tending not the listen and assume they know what is being asked, just my experiance.

On the other hand the big store tend to be weak on experiance and knowledge with the difference being hourly employee versus the shop owner. Again, just my experiance.

The luthier may be less people focused and have difficulty dealing with prospective buyers who know or understand little of what they want. When all the elements come together, I think you have a thriving business with happy customers.

giannaviolins - Posted - 02/12/2010:  09:05:00

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I suspect things have changed, and there's been a lot of noise introduced. I've been shown quite a few bargain eBay instruments that are really pretty good choices for the fake labels they carry. Just looking online, you'd think the X selling for $$ on eBay was really an X just like shown on Tarisio etc for $$$$. Used to be the big names were faked, but now I'm seeing a trickle of credible mislabeled instruments. I've seen them with real looking labels and labels that aren't so real. I've had good instruments with old (original) fake labels and been offered money for just the label.

I'm also still seeing a few Italian label instruments from obscure Italian makers that aren't. If I'm asked, I'll venture my opinion. Otherwise, not.

The Internet has simply added another venue for fraud, another venue for what we call "trolling", another venue for legitimate competition.

Chuck Naill - Posted - 02/12/2010:  10:45:48

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Regarding labels, what is the ethical standard for sourcing instruments in the white and finishing them elsewhere? As a consumer, I would prefer two labels or at least some verification of pedigree.

giannaviolins - Posted - 02/12/2010:  11:03:11

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Unfortunately labeling law in the US proves difficult to accommodate. Unless a label indicates a country of origin, I suspect any trade name is a reasonable and ethical thing to put in.

For trade instruments, pedigree doesn't seem particularly important. They're pretty much fungible.

Violin in the white produced intentionally thick by Frankenstein Co. in Romania, but outsourced by them to TransSiberian Co.. Shipped over. Graduated by XYZ, finished by XYZ. Sold wholesale. Final setup at the retailers shop. Should this instrument have 4 labels?

When the label becomes a good part of the value, then some kind of attribution process seems reasonable. But the normal trade instruments I can't see any problem with using a simple trade name.

Violins in the white come in without labels, anyway, so the shop working on them usually puts a label in. Or asks the retailer what label they want.

And the labels have the violins change underneath them. Look at Cremona, Dunov, Doetsch.

barretone - Posted - 02/12/2010:  13:06:08

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Long live the downtrodden fiddler class! We will rise up one day and rule the world with our cheap, fake, underpriced European violins!

Randy

Chuck Naill - Posted - 02/12/2010:  13:48:28

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quote:

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Originally posted by voodoo


Violin in the white produced intentionally thick by Frankenstein Co. in Romania, but outsourced by them to TransSiberian Co.. Shipped over. Graduated by XYZ, finished by XYZ. Sold wholesale. Final setup at the retailers shop. Should this instrument have 4 labels?

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It appears these range from $400-under $1500. The ones I found on line where very attractive. I did not know that Eastman does some finishing at its Maryland location.

giannaviolins - Posted - 02/12/2010:  16:11:09

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Eastman no longer does the finishing in MD, at least they weren't last year. They have been doing the odd business of getting white German violins (good ones), graduating and barring them, then sending them to China for finishing, then bringing them back. The new Dunovs may be done that way, too. I'm not sure. I'll have to ask next time I'm up in MD.

Decent violins in the white range from $200 to perhaps $500. That's about the costliest I've seen. I haven't looked higher than that. The amount of work required to get a fiddle from the thick white varies, but is quite substantial. Varnish can be very simple and fast with no ground or quite involved. The same differential in graduation, barring, and setup occur as well. The amount of time spent varies proportionally. By a lot.

Two drivers (at least) exist for shipping in the white. First, the plates can be thicker to withstand travel. Second, the varnish doesn't get messed up in shipping if it isn't on.

The situation therefore exists where two violins from the same small line of the same quality end up in quite different trim. One remains thick and gets a fast and dirty varnish, a quick setup, and then put into the retail market. The other gets carefully graduated, barred, assembled, hand scraped, and then has an advanced varnish system including primer, sealer, ground, color, and clear put on. And a great setup with first class components and lots of tweeking. They're hardly equivalent instruments at that point.

This likely trades into the final prices. I don't find that unreasonable.

Sometimes the same violin transitions. Wholesale shop A imports nice instruments from Germany for many years, does the graduations, bars, and varnish. Sells them under the "Amish" label. Later the Macaroni company buys the brand name and instrument line, learns the techniques used, and takes over the "Amish" label. The instruments change and things are different. Wholesale shop A starts producing the "Quaker" violin, which is the "Amish" in a slightly different color. The same instrument, two different labels. If the "Quaker" sells for less and people figure this out, then shop A will be able to build on its previous success with the "Amish." But usually people don't dig that deeply.

It's an interesting trade. It's not unlike mandolins, where one "elder" suddenly decides that a 1938 Godiva in mint condition is worth $120,000, but only if it's signed by Tom Peeper himself. The same models unsigned are only worth a mere $20,000. Of course, similar practical performance can be had for $3500 from any number of woodsy shops. Or can it? Always an interesting debate.