banjoist - Posted - 11/14/2009:  14:53:47

Haven't played for about 20 years. When I tried, I had pretty bad pain in neck, was told I have arthritis there. I'm wondering if anyone has experience with holding fiddle on chest, or a fabric yoke that would make a ledge to tuck the end in, or even clamp on to a Wolf shoulder rest.

autumnstrings - Posted - 11/14/2009:  15:33:18

Welcome to the board. I live with arthritis in my knees, hips, neck and shoulders. It took a while for me to find something that worked. I sometimes use a Kun shoulder rest, and if it's a bad neck day I switch over to a Carmen rest . I will try and take some pictures of how I put the rest on tomorrow, but basically I adjust the lower edge of the rest very high so most of the pressure is on my chest. I have another friend that has the same problem and he recommends a Bonmusica rest which I have on order, he says this one keeps him from using his neck since it almost hooks over the shoulder, so I'm going to give it a go and will happily report back.

I've tried to hold it on my chest and in other non-traditional ways but I just can't seem to get the bowing right since I'm only 5'5" tall.



Autumn
--
St. Francis said,
“A man who uses his hands is a laborer. One who uses his hands and mind is a craftsman. He who uses his hands, and his mind, and his heart is an artist.”

M-D - Posted - 11/14/2009:  15:47:32

I play off my chest, and use a shoulder-rest on the fiddle. One corner catches on the bib of my overalls, the other leans on-to my shoulder, arm, and chest, right where it all comes together.

Check under the user-name SMDTMTL for photos, too. He uses a sling he's made. Rhiannon Giddens, of the Carolina Chocolate Drops, uses something similar.

_________________________________________________________________

M-D

Traditional Ozarks, Always

Music is found in the space between the notes -- in the silence between the chords. Get your spaces right, and you've got it. ~ Albert Greenfield

majorbanjo - Posted - 11/14/2009:  16:31:23

I haven't experimented yet.....but I'm having similar issues.....years of Airborne status in the Army and many hard landings have caused discs in my neck to degenerate causing pinched nerves and shooting pain........bad to get old........

Good luck.......

Trey

banjoist - Posted - 11/14/2009:  17:11:41

Thanks to all for your ideas. It may take me a while to test them, since I also have some carpal tunnel problems that need to heal before I can get serious about the fiddle. In the meantime, I'm looking for a banjo.

banjoist - Posted - 11/14/2009:  17:43:22

M-D, the search engine here needs a term in addition to the member's name. 'hold' and 'sling' got no hits. The lovely Rhiannon has much material on the web, mostly playing banjo; no luck so far with fiddle pictures; any suggestions?

M-D - Posted - 11/14/2009:  18:19:36

Pull up his home-page, then look for photos, near the bottom, in the centre. He has a photo-album there of the strap.

Never mind, here's the link: fiddlehangout.com/myhangout/ph...bumid=455

Regarding your CTS: Are you recovering from surgery?

_________________________________________________________________

M-D

Traditional Ozarks, Always

Music is found in the space between the notes -- in the silence between the chords. Get your spaces right, and you've got it. ~ Albert Greenfield

Edited by - M-D on 11/14/2009 18:22:31

autumnstrings - Posted - 11/14/2009:  19:05:52

That strap set up is pretty cool.

Autumn
--
St. Francis said,
“A man who uses his hands is a laborer. One who uses his hands and mind is a craftsman. He who uses his hands, and his mind, and his heart is an artist.”

banjoist - Posted - 11/14/2009:  20:47:32

Thanks a lot for the link; that should not be hard to try. On the CTS, I've caught it fairly early and hope to recover through physical therapy. Awaiting more certain diagnosis with Dr appt in January, though I'm pretty certain of it, and can see PT now.

And I'm impressed with the supportive community here. Was not aware of site until yesterday.

M-D - Posted - 11/14/2009:  21:56:05

You might want to look at the program(s) available at selfcare4rsi.com , in addition to your PT, or perhaps at some point future.

Also, the DVD available from focaldystonia.net . While specifically for focal dystonia, I found that some of the exercises also worked on the adhesions responsible for CTS and UTS.

_________________________________________________________________

M-D

Traditional Ozarks, Always

Music is found in the space between the notes -- in the silence between the chords. Get your spaces right, and you've got it. ~ Albert Greenfield

oldtimer - Posted - 11/15/2009:  13:55:53

I have had four ruptured disks in the upper spine for a couple of decades. I always have pain. You have to be careful to not try to hold the fiddle up by clamping it between the jaw and the shoulder. Many teachers will tell you to do this, but with neck problems, you have to find your own method.

If you see videos of me fiddling, you see me slouching like I don't give a dang, but I have to slouch... I can't sit up on straight because of severe sciatic pain.

stay tooned....
Glenn Godsey

"Time passes unhindered"

fiddlepogo - Posted - 11/15/2009:  14:40:19

For CTS in the left wrist, keep the wrist straight, don't palm the fiddle.
For CTS in the right wrist, TUF (thumb under frog) position may help-
it helped me with a forearm pain that was near the carpal tunnel but not quite there.
Also, 200 mg vitamin B6 seems to help- that's the amount found in at least one Vitamin B complex tablet (Trader Joe's). I saw it recommended in a computer magazine many years ago, and it helped me- it supposedly helps strengthen the myelin sheaths covering the nerves and makes them less susceptible to injury.

Michael- Old Time 90% of the time!

"Pattern Bowing"- you say that like it's a BAD THING!!!
Multi-pattern bowing works for me!!!

http://c1.ezfolk.com/bands/1088/index.php
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael's Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)

M-D - Posted - 11/15/2009:  14:49:21

Cherries (fresh, dried, or powdered) are also good for such ailments. Plenty of info available on this. Just Google for it.

_________________________________________________________________

M-D

Traditional Ozarks, Always

Music is found in the space between the notes -- in the silence between the chords. Get your spaces right, and you've got it. ~ Albert Greenfield

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 11/16/2009:  04:54:06

Ditto on the cherries... I read somewhere that in studies, red cherries, eaten on a regular basis, did more for pain and inflammation than aspirin. I had to take my little chin rest thing off my fiddle... I hold it under the chin, but that thing on there really made me hurt. I do better without it, although I worry about bare skin on wood finish... over the long haul.

fiddledan - Posted - 11/16/2009:  05:50:11

I too, play on the chest and have never clamped the fiddle with the neck and chin. No string or strap just balancing the instrument. I often recommend a piece of that rubbery shelf lining under the fiddle to help it stay in place to start with, but again don't use it myself. I like oldtimer am often seen slumping as in "i just don't care" but i'm just relaxed and really DON't care about the hold - or perhaps better I don't dwell on it. We do have an old fellow in our fiddle group who uses a long shoelace tied in a loop. he puts it around his neck then up under the lower bouts of the c's in the fiddle.

Play nice!
Dan Levenson
Now Available "Old Time Festival Tunes for Fiddle and Mandolin"
OldTimeMusic.us
Now teaching regularly at San Diego's Old Time Music

caeman - Posted - 11/16/2009:  07:02:30

I only play from chest as I find it the most comfortable position. I found putting the fiddle under my chin hurt my ear (the resonate sound gave me a headache) and it gave me a shoulder pain. Thus far, the old-time method of against the chest has worked for me learning just fine. It does mean that you are pretty much limited to first position, but all of the music *I* want to play is only in first position, anywho.

I have taken my holding and playing method from Truman Price:
youtube.com/watch?v=tCsRNDFH-lg


Chad Wilson

Edited by - caeman on 11/16/2009 07:12:16

M-D - Posted - 11/16/2009:  07:25:40

I also tend to slump, as tall as I am, but I've found that if I use a shorter chair, then my knee comes up higher, and I dont have to slump over as far. As Dan said, it's all about being relaxed.

I have no problem shifting neither, on those rare times that I am required to.

Also, turmeric is a healthy anti-inflammatory, having more benefits than even that. The active ingredient is circumin. Google that. I know of one product, Curamin, that is a concentrated dosage of this, in its own proprietary blend, that works very well for inflammation. Drink plenty of water with it, though.

_________________________________________________________________

M-D

Traditional Ozarks, Always

Music is found in the space between the notes -- in the silence between the chords. Get your spaces right, and you've got it. ~ Albert Greenfield

Edited by - M-D on 11/16/2009 07:38:23

autumnstrings - Posted - 11/16/2009:  15:16:31

Thanks M-D. I'm going to try that Curamin. My homeopath doc has also recommended it. :)

Autumn
--
St. Francis said,
“A man who uses his hands is a laborer. One who uses his hands and mind is a craftsman. He who uses his hands, and his mind, and his heart is an artist.”

bj - Posted - 11/16/2009:  15:36:08

Have you seen this?

happynex.com/

^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^
So many tunes. So little time!

Me on the Web --
doneinstyle.com
wordpresscustomthemes.net
My inspiration:
pandora.com/?sc=sh14633812588807237

ironworker - Posted - 11/16/2009:  17:30:58

timely topic, no pun intended.
in the 70's i played under the chin,switched to collarbone/chest for 5 years, and then went back and forth.now, i have a hard time keeping the control i need on the chest. chin seems to give me better intonation.
However, i do not like the full volume of the fiddle in my left ear at all. very distracting in a big room w/lots of players or dancers,and it is a little worrisome from a long-term hearing perspective, as well. i use hearing protection all the time at work and yard chores, and i'm about ready to use it (left ear only) at one of the places i play weekly.
i've been working to get back down on the chest,and steve's sling as well as the site that BJ suggested look like great ideas to me- time for a little experimentation!!

michael ford

M-D - Posted - 11/16/2009:  17:40:31

Autumn,

The stuff works, and I have that from several sources, as well as my own experience.

BJ,

Pretty neat!

_________________________________________________________________

M-D

Traditional Ozarks, Always

Music is found in the space between the notes -- in the silence between the chords. Get your spaces right, and you've got it. ~ Albert Greenfield

bluemandolinman - Posted - 11/16/2009:  18:01:59

Great topic! I'm another geezer getting ready to try the fiddle. I also have neck problems so the info shared here will really help. The tips on dealing with inflammation is also greatly appreciated.

One question comes to mind about holding the fiddle on the chest; does it put your left hand in a position that might lead to more problems?

maxwellhouse - Posted - 11/16/2009:  18:53:56

I have psoriatic arthritis, but two shots of Enbrel a week is a wonder drug. Neck pain, back pain and stiffness, and hand and thumb pain can all be helped if you can relax the arms, hand and fingers when you play. The faster I try to go , the harder it is, but the only other choice is to quit, so...

banjoist - Posted - 11/17/2009:  09:46:17

For arthritic inflammation, and in general for many tho' not all ills, vitamin D or knowledge-based sun exposure is well worth a try: see vitamindcouncil.org for latest research and suggestions. In my experience, reading and talking about this for the last 3 years, barely half of doctors are up to date. (Most people don't get enough sun since we live indoors now.) Supplements are cheap and safe if you think about what you are doing.

My physical therapist is puzzled by my hand symptoms, referred me to a hand specialist.

fiddlenbanjo - Posted - 11/17/2009:  16:39:48

My shoulder rest broke just before going on stage at our last gig and I've been going without it ever since. I just hold the fiddle in the classical way, but mostly with my left hand. All that fiddle freedom is a little hard to control at first, but one perk to playing this way is that I don't have as much neck and shoulder pain.

As least one classical guy teaches this way, the movie soundtrack guy:
youtube.com/watch?v=dd0160Y8G8c

Edited by - fiddlenbanjo on 11/17/2009 16:40:20

M-D - Posted - 11/17/2009:  22:15:46

Yes, I second the vitamin D3, too. More and more has come to light regarding it, for a host of maladies.

The SelfCare link I posted above has a program that works for relieving adhesions responsible for CTS and UTS, among other conditions. Also, trigger-point therapy is simple and effective, under the correct application. I've also found that doing certain exercises (like merely raising one's arms) very, very slowly, also works on the adhesions, and at a rapid rate. It's very easy to tell which exercises are best.

Funny, but I just tonight wrote to Clayton, asking his permission to post something he wrote today, on this very subject.

_________________________________________________________________

M-D

Traditional Ozarks, Always

Music is found in the space between the notes -- in the silence between the chords. Get your spaces right, and you've got it. ~ Albert Greenfield

M-D - Posted - 11/18/2009:  08:35:38

Why You May Have Violin-Pain
by Clayton Haslop

. . . I just spent a good hour or so reviewing some wonderful videos on YouTube.

Amongst them was one featuring Zukerman in an interview on violin playing and the importance of learning to play
properly.

The interesting, or perhaps a little confusing thing about this particular video, however, was that Maestro Zukerman begins his remarks by saying how much physical pain he suffers while playing. And it is within this seemingly ironic context of pain that he expresses the need to learn to play ‘correctly’.

Now, Zukerman is an extra-ordinary violinist, and my comments here should in no way be taken as a criticism of
his playing or musicianship.

I also don’t want to give you the impression that I don’t experience any discomfort whatsoever when I play.
As Zukerman himself points out, the very positions we take when raising the violin are undeniably unnatural to
the human body.

Yet there are things we can do to keep the discomfort to a minimum; to where it does not overwhelm or detract from
the pleasure of playing the instrument.

After all, one of the great pleasures of the playing the violin or viola is the close proximity they have to our
ear while we play them.

We are literally enveloped by the tone.

The irony of Zukerman’s comments, however, arise from his emphasis on learning correctly, on the one hand, and
the specific pain he experiences in his neck and shoulders from his ‘hold’ on the other.

You see, Zukerman was taught to secure the instrument to the shoulder with his chin. Most of us have been taught
this, actually.

Yet fortunately for me, and now potentially for you, 3 decades ago I came under the tutelage of a fairly decent
fiddler by the name of Nathan Milstein, who had something quite different to say about this important subject.

He said, very matter-of-factly in his heavy Russian accent, ‘hold the violin with your left hand, not with
your chin.’

Wow, what a concept. ‘Can this really be done,’ I thought to myself.

Yet there the man was, standing in front of me playing the G Minor Caprice – he always referred to them by
key, not by number; #16, in this case – playing with the violin slid half down his shoulder with absolute
ease. It would have taken the neck of an ostrich to reach the chinrest from where it was.

Ok, I’m exaggerating just a tad.

Yet the point remains, you can alleviate much of the neck pain and chin abscess issues you may be experiencing
by weaning yourself away from the constant reliance on the chin, and to keeping the instrument pinned to your
shoulder.

In the process you may also learn a thing or two about how to balance and organize the fingers of your left
hand. And guess what, by doing THAT your playing immediately becomes more seamless and fluid.

Not a bad addition to the bargain, I’d say.

So, if you’re having the issues I mentioned, and are up for liberating yourself from the ball and chain of a
‘chin hold,’ come take a look at a great program I have to help you accomplish it and much more.

It’s called, ‘Kreutzer for Violin Mastery.’
Here’s where you’ll find it.
violinmastery.com/kreutzer.htm

All the best,

Clayton Haslop

_________________________________________________________________

M-D

Traditional Ozarks, Always

Music is found in the space between the notes -- in the silence between the chords. Get your spaces right, and you've got it. ~ Albert Greenfield

M-D - Posted - 11/18/2009:  08:45:34

Clayton also has a free e-mail list that one may receive, available via his web-site.

And, Nathan Milstein, along with Heifetz, Elman, Seidel, Zimbalist, Mischakoff, and Rabinoff. was the student of Leopold Auer, who was an advocate of NOT using a shoulder-rest, among other techniques that shaped his playing.

_________________________________________________________________

M-D

Traditional Ozarks, Always

Music is found in the space between the notes -- in the silence between the chords. Get your spaces right, and you've got it. ~ Albert Greenfield